Beedster

7 minutes ago, Owen said:

Not all the scenarios that could refer to are attractive.

Harsh 😆

2 minutes ago, Owen said:

If we are going to become emotionally invested in this we will need pictures of the body as well.

Tomorrow I will reveal all Owen 👍

Extraordinary person and life, all too easy to overlook that at a time of serious sexism and elitism she was always seen by audiences and colleagues alike as the real deal and never a token, and that was still the case 50 years later among audiences and colleagues of very different generations and cultures. RIP Annie ❤️

13 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

White vinegar does soften PVA type glues more effectively than water alone, I tried it in a guitar repair. Though that was more at the stage of encouraging the joint to let go in the first place than cleaning up the residue, which still needed to be scraped.

Thanks @Beer of the Bass, that resonates with what I've read over on TB, it turns solid and stubbon pockets of glue into something like sticky plasticine that then needs to be removed quite carefully. I have just acquired some wihite vinegar and, just in case, some white wine vinegar    

2 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

Is there some international variation in the bass sizes conventionally used by orchestras? I'm sure I've seen more discussion of large older basses having their shoulders cut down and scale length reduced from the US than from the UK and Europe. That might be a factor in why Talkbass gives a different impression.

Interesting question, there's certainly a few threads on TB about reducing scale length, which strikes me as a pretty dramatic step although there is also something of an obsession among some for modifications to optimise the overall tone (e.g., mode matching) that might explain this as much as playability? 

Another great piece of work @d_g 👍

On 09/01/2024 at 09:57, Beedster said:

I messaged Bass Bros a week ago about a consignment sale and had no reply so I’ve opted to go somewhere else

Decided to try again, this time by email, and had an immediate response. Guess their web forms aren't working which might be worth keeping in mind

10 hours ago, Bloopdad1 said:

Err... The majority of professional classical double bassists. 

 

If one bass out of the section of 8 was a 3/4 size laminate bass for example it would stick out (sonically and visually) like a sore thumb. 

 

99% of bass sections in symphonic, ballet and operatic playing have 4/4 sized instruments. 

That was always my understanding @Bloopdad1, having played in orchestras when I was younger (not DB by the way) I always expected double basses to be far bigger than those I started to come across when I got into playing DB in bands. Is it still the case that most orchestral players play 4/4?

16 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

I've never tried that - it doesn't sound especially likely but worth a go! 

I think I'd be working with a wide, very sharp chisel and a piece of plywood, cut to the right size and chamfered at the edges, with sandpaper wrapped around it.

That's my thinking, but I'm guessing a chemical appraoch would not only be less work but potentially a whole lot cleaner. I'll do some investigating and report back 👍

13 hours ago, pete.young said:

This looks similar to my old Musima, it looks like someone has attempted a not-very-good repair using PVA, which has splintered the wood off the side of the neck and stuck it into the socket, and possibly also stuck some of the socket onto the neck sides.  I took the Musima to a local luthier and he came up with 3 options.

 

Option 1 was so expensive he didn't bother writing it down! I think this was a non-screw option, which may also have involved making a new neck.

 

Option 2 aka bodge was to clean off the PVA, leave the splintered wood in place and attempt to glue the neck back in place hoping it would still fit reasonably tightly. And then drill the heel and fit 2 long screws through the heel and into the body block, which would provide pretty much all of the strength.

 

Option 3 was to remove all the splintered wood from neck and socket, clean out all the damage and PVA, glue a thin veneer to the sides of the socket and maple facings to the sides of the neck, and glue it back together. Then fit screws as for option 2, which would be a backup rather than the primary source of strength in the joint.

 

For me, none of these options made economic sense given the value of the bass.

 

No idea why there's a 90 degree notch. It looks as though it was done at the time of the previous repair. In the bottom picture you can see an extension of the saw cuts. the only thing I can think of is that the original cap was part of the back, and it splintered off when the original failure happened.

Thanks Pete that's very helpful. I've considered all the options in question and a new neck is one of them, in part because the original has three issues, a broken scroll, the heel, and a very worn fingerboard. I'm going to see how it goes with the original in the meantime 👍 

The notch is a mystery  

12 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

 

I've seen about three "Option 2" repairs (and owned one of them). If the purpose of this is to save a vauable instrument, it's a bad idea. If it's going to save it from being scrapped, it's worth it. 

 

I reckon if you cleaned of the PVA from both the neck and inside the cavity, it would (with a little gentle persuasion) slot straight in there. Guess you have to be careful about the height and the angle, but assume you'll be cutting a new bridge in any case.

 

This demands a comprehensive photo diary!

Thanks Lawrie, this is very much save it from the skip. @pete.young's Option 2 was what I was initially considering but it looks like I'm not dealing with a broken instrument but a poorly repaired one, which leads me to worry that even if the neck and body will fit back together nicely around the glue and splinters - which is a big if as it looks like the two have been apart for some time - it's probably going to be neither stable in the long term or positioned correctly. So yes, as you suggest, clean up the PVA, see how things stand before potentially doing further woodwork. And yes this will almost certainly need a new bridge although the original one is hanging around somewhere 👍 

Thanks @JoeEvans 👍

I'm reading on Talkbass that white vinegar can be used to remove the glue residue, any thoughts on the credibility of this and the potential to damage the wood? 

Still here, I suspect I'm going to end up keeping it at this rate  

41 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Which also originated from - and now resides again with - @Clarky 😆

 

The circle of BassChat life init

Less a circle, and more an out-and-back to and from Clarky 😆

14 minutes ago, pete.young said:

This looks similar to my old Musima, it looks like someone has attempted a not-very-good repair using PVA, which has splintered the wood off the side of the neck and stuck it into the socket, and possibly also stuck some of the socket onto the neck sides.  I took the Musima to a local luthier and he came up with 3 options.

 

Option 1 was so expensive he didn't bother writing it down! I think this was a non-screw option, which may also have involved making a new neck.

 

Option 2 aka bodge was to clean off the PVA, leave the splintered wood in place and attempt to glue the neck back in place hoping it would still fit reasonably tightly. And then drill the heel and fit 2 long screws through the heel and into the body block, which would provide pretty much all of the strength.

 

Option 3 was to remove all the splintered wood from neck and socket, clean out all the damage and PVA, glue a thin veneer to the sides of the socket and maple facings to the sides of the neck, and glue it back together. Then fit screws as for option 2, which would be a backup rather than the primary source of strength in the joint.

 

For me, none of these options made economic sense given the value of the bass.

 

No idea why there's a 90 degree notch. It looks as though it was done at the time of the previous repair. In the bottom picture you can see an extension of the saw cuts. the only thing I can think of is that the original cap was part of the back, and it splintered off when the original failure happened.

Many thanks Pete, yes it's clearly suffered a poor repair, and the more I look at it the more I suspect the repair was an attempted modification, perhaps to reset the neck angle or height. I can't escape the feeling that what I'm going to call the wing - the protruding piece of wood near the cap - has been glued on to the cap where it has been cut away (the lines are too clean for it to have been a break) from the back of the bass. So, if this is the case reversing this modification as far as possible might be the best path. I'm going to do some fine measuring and drawings on Saturday to see how it might all work out.

I suspect that whatever path I opt for there's going to need to be some screws or bolts involved, unless I'm very lucky. Chuck Traeger will of course be displeased, but all going well it'll be playable and stable  

But in the meantime I'd welcome the thoughts and advice of people who actually know what they're doing 👍

15 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

I play a 4/4 at larger indoor gigs ... that's "larger" as in more room for me and my gear, so a nice big stage or something. Trouble is, that's only a dozen or so gigs a year.

 

For outdoor sunshine gigs I play my 3/4 AliKat because obviously it really sparkles in the sun. For all indoor gigs where space is at a premium I play the Kolstein Busetto that I bought a few years back from @bassacewhich originated on Basschat with @Clarky I believe. Now I've bought a KK Baby Bass which I'll use at jam sessions where not only is space limited but also I will be at the mercy of whoever claims to be "doing the sound" and the bass will be at the mercy of passing punters.

 

It's horses for courses, innit?

 

Not entirely sure I've actually answered any questions here ...

 

Which would you choose to play all other things permitting Jack?

I've owned a 4/4 upright that I bought as a kit from Germany in 2015 and which as such is my longest standing item of gear. Until that point I'd played 3/4, but the moment I played the larger beats I knew I felt more at home. This is nothing to do with my stature, I'm 5'11'', with quite small hands. It's not really something I thought about until recently when I started gigging a 3/4 for al the wrong reasons and in doing missed the larger bass.

Anyway, i was reading over on Talkbass the opinions of a regular poster and apparent expert on DB that 4/4 instruments are very much an anachronism, unnecessary in an age of advanced string technology, good quality amplification etc. He even suggested that owner of 4/4 instruments will not be able to sell them therefore their value is significantly below 3/4 instruments of equivalent quality. 

Seems that much like my affection for large and heavy 1980's Mesa amps my affection of 4/4 basses is out of keeping with the current zeitgeist? 

Not that I give a flying f**k really! But it did leave me wondering just how many folks her plays 4/4 and why?

I am SO keen to try these on my 4/4 and have found several methods of doing so without compromising the strings so this is likely the final bump before next weekend is spent replacing my current ebony tailpiece with a longer and much lighter graphite version, adjusting tail-wire and bridge height and position, applying a whole lot of appropriate poweder to the nut and bridge, and then VERY carefully installing these beauties  

Folks

An old double bass requiring some serious repair has come into my possession; in fact it would me more correct to say a collection of parts that all belonged to the same instrument have come into my possession. My aim is to rebuild the instrument to the degree that it's playable and structurally sound, as opposed to restoring it to its original state.   

These books, as well as the expertise of this forum, will be my guides

It's a 4/4 with a 43.5 speaking length. It has a break at the scroll (which is only held on by the tuners), the endpin gets no traction with the body, there is no nut and the tailwire appears to be made out of a piece of old fence. However a good look around the inside of the body suggests no cracks, no loose bars and - perhaps miraculously- the sound-post is still in place and appears to be quite stable.

The main challenge at present relates to the neck, which is not attached to the body, has a considerable amount of glue residue and splintering, and also a curious shape. Going on the obvious signs of previous alignment between neck and body the piece of wood that appear extended sits inside the back of the instrument, that is inside the body. 

Ultimately I'm not sure what purpose that V-shaped gap serves and whether is is something to retain or fill. Thanks in anticipation of any help you can offer?

Here's some pics of the business end of the body

And finally a photo of the neck almost in place

On 07/01/2024 at 11:20, Bolo said:

Was it much different in the late 70s-early 80s? 

This. Hard times don’t stifle creativity they drive it. Looking at the last 20 years ir so of economic stability and the music it produced…….

Need I say more 😕

9 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

@Beedster goodness knows... I looked into the whole after length issue when I was doing it, but there is, to say the least, some diversity of opinion on what's desirable, and very little hard information. So I set the loop lengths just to make sure the washers didn't rattle against each other, and otherwise didn't worry too much.

In practice I feel like it made the bass slightly more responsive to light touches and maybe a slightly richer tone. I think it's to do with reducing vibrating weight so that the strings are less damped.

Ha ha, ‘some diversity’ of opinion is an understatement! In the grand scheme - wood, bridge, soundpost, strings - even if a factor I imagine it’s quite low down the list so I’m going to do some experimentation 👍

I messaged Bass Bros a week ago about a consignment sale and had no reply so I’ve opted to go somewhere else

Hi @agedhorse, photos below

Thanks @JoeEvans, very creative. What does that do to the afterlength, do the cords effectively add to vibrating string afterlength, replace the tailpiece, or fall somewhere between the two?

7 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Do the two foot switches say M-Pulse? Do they have the same number of pins on the DIN connector? 

Hi @agedhorse, I'll check re the switches saying 'M-Pulse', although IIRC it does (I have only the one), but the pin numbers certainly differed between the unit/cable and the amp itself hence my inability ti use it 👍