AM1

[quote name='51m0n' post='498941' date='May 27 2009, 04:08 PM']AM1, in all seriousness, now you've changed your strap length (it really should be such that your bass stays at the same height when you are sitting or standing) watch for hunching your back, favouring one shoulder straining your neck against your strap, the strap moving into your neck etc etc. Make sure your strap is over your shoulder, not your neck etc Otherwise you will be paying all your GAS dough to an osteopath![/quote] I don't understand how I can play for hours with my bass low but when I raise it up, my shoulder is well throbbing really quickly! And yeah, just been flogging stuff to indulge my GAS, in a relentless, tone chasing crusade.

[quote name='51m0n' post='498936' date='May 27 2009, 04:05 PM']Well in reality you dont need to ever make that kind of a stretch. But you can actually do it cant you! So there you go!! And it didnt hurt did it (because you did this slowly and carefully, watching out for pain etc etc). So, when you play you should have practiced a refined technique whereby this is normal, and you wont hurt yourself, and you will reach 4 frets with ease. Note how that slight curve of your index finger is dampening the ADG strings. Neat that isnt it![/quote] I noticed the dampening - that's amazing! I definitely had my bass too low before. [quote name='51m0n' post='498936' date='May 27 2009, 04:05 PM']Men prefer women with small hands, its a win all round......[/quote] Soooo predictable

[quote name='51m0n' post='498933' date='May 27 2009, 04:02 PM']Just look at the lady's picture, if that isnt a neoprene fetish I dont what is , she'll be the first to admit it too![/quote] No, no, no, the black suit is the latex suit. THIS is a neoprene fetish. Red neoprene...yummy!

[quote name='51m0n' post='498889' date='May 27 2009, 03:34 PM']Not really, I just learnt how to do it. Hold you left hand in an open relaxed position. Keeping you index finger pointing straight pull you pinky toward your thumb, it doesnt hurt, its all really relaxed, but thats a huge distance on a bass neck between tip of index and tip of pinky as the pinky comes in towards your thumb at such an angle as to increase the distance to the index tip. Now close your thumb in toward your relaxed middle finger and with the slightest curve to your index finger you can fret both notes (fret 1 and fret 5) This is impossible to really describe, but thats what my stretching is based upon, and I really dont have huuuge hands, I have very medium possibly slightly small hands for a bloke (I'm only 5'7 and 3/4" (dont forget the 3/4"!!) tall. Note my wrist is not bent (overly) to do the reach cos my bass is high enough. Now I have a 5 I dont really go in for gymnastics like this (cos I can play the same notes further up the neck). PLus I'm old and decrepit [/quote] Haha!! I just tried that and I could only just about reach the 5 th fret...and I bet my hands are MUCH smaller than yours! There's no way I'd be making a habit of that across 5 frets though, utter madness for my hand size..that's a HUGE stretch. But it's certainly good for improving the old four fret reach. How come you are always right!!!!!!

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='498873' date='May 27 2009, 03:23 PM']slow and steady wins the race. practice consistently and you'll see the improvement soon enough you must have the biggest small hands around mate if you've got a stretch like that!! [/quote] Yeah, that's a 5 fret reach! I think I better take my Mum's advice. Around Christmas time, when I told her I was about to buy a bass, the response was "no dear, that's for a man, get a guitar instead". Priceless.

[quote name='51m0n' post='498856' date='May 27 2009, 03:11 PM']I bet you have enough reach. You may not realise how to maximise your reach safely. Or the height of your bass is impeding your reach. I have small to average sized hands for a bloke, and I can reach from an F to A on the E string of a 34" bass fairly comfortably (index to pinky) However I think that it would be very hard for me to try and explain how to do this over the internet - its the job of a teacher in person I think. To much risk of misunderstanding causing you to do it wrong and possibly hurt yourself.[/quote] I know you are probably right..but I'm being very careful about overstretching without knowing how...as you said....it's better to err on the side of caution. Incidentally...I moved the height of my bass earlier in the week and it has made a MASSIVE difference to my left hand dexterity but now killing my left shoulder! I was in the studio for 4 hours on Sunday evening with a band that does not do breaks..so we pretty much played solid for the whole time. Next day my shoulder and the muscle in the left side on the middle of my back was well aching! It's really quite amazing what a difference just a few small adjustments can make. The other thing is now my wrist is bent a lot more. There is so much conflicting advice regarding the correct wrist position. But for sure, having the left wrist bent more certainly has improved my reach. Ha, but at what cost, I'm sure I'll find out next week!

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='498833' date='May 27 2009, 02:56 PM']you should try playing my 6! then you'd know all about pivoting your wrist for 1st fret! it sounds to me (not to split hairs) that your left hand needs conditioning. scales are a very good way to do it. start at 1st fret and play a one octave major scale ascending and descending, then move to 2nd and so on until you get to 13th fret, then come all the way down. then move to the A string and do the same. start with a REALLY slow tempo and gradually build it up (around 60bpm if you use a metronome?). slower excercises do a lot to improve your hand strength. DON'T PUSH TOO HARD! if it gets painful (as in really starts to ache) stop the excersise, take 5, then start again. youl soon notice an improvement. do things like this every day before you start jamming songs or begin songwriting, and youl find your playing improves very quickly FWIW - it was a shock when i switched to 6, just how weak my left hand was. took a lot of hours to get it up to scratch[/quote] Yes, I think you're right...I can definitely feel more strength coming into my fingers over time, it just seems SO slow! Maybe I'm unrealistic about progress/speed. Bass in hand as we speak...there's something really satisfying about wasting the day playing bass instead of paying for MP's moats! But yeah I do keep stopping and resting it when it aches. HAHA!

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='498790' date='May 27 2009, 02:31 PM']use the one finger per fret principle. on scalic patterns you should never have to stretch too far, even in first position, unless you're going through 2 - 4 octaves and hence shifting your hand position. bear that in mind [/quote] I have to pivot my wrist a bit to be able to do 1 finger per fret on the lower frets as I haven't got enough reach..well I can just about do it but I feel too much of a stretch. In fact since I've been working more on scales, I am noticing some aching down on the karate chop side of my left hand.

[quote name='51m0n' post='498744' date='May 27 2009, 01:59 PM'][url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50170[/url] Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method If you dont know your fretboard after this lot (and in a useful way) you are dead from the neck up (pun intended) Now get to work![/quote] Ello mate! Just had a look - excellent resource - many thanks! That's actually a brilliant exercise as you're kind of forced to figure out the notes and think about where they are. I really must stop playing by ear so much! I don't know where you dredge up all these gruesome exercises from, but you've single-handedly killed what was left of my social life! You really are a git, in the nicest possible way! The only thing is...how do you know what fingers to use when practicing in the way described in that exercise? Cheers AM

[quote name='alexclaber' post='498094' date='May 26 2009, 04:30 PM']That reminds me I meant to start a similar thread for someone I saw I while back but I'll be damned if I can remember where or when it was now! Hmmm... On the other hand I still can't forget the covers band I saw at a ball a few years ago. I'm sure they were talented individuals at something but the rhythm section's talents clearly lay somewhere other than in rhythm! Alex[/quote] Let those who are without sin, cast the first stone.

[quote name='phsycoandy' post='497567' date='May 25 2009, 09:09 PM']Guys, gotta get this sorted quick, the opening riff is fine just struggling with the verse odly can someone help me with the link notes between the F# and the E please?[/quote] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqjR3b9zYnQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqjR3b9zYnQ[/url] Some of the notes in this are wrong but it's a start point.

Buy a box of compeed plasters - you can put one over the cut finger and continue to play...I've done this when I had mega blisters - you will lose some of the sensitivity, but it will allow the wound to heal, the sooner you get them on, the better.

[quote name='Zach' post='497519' date='May 25 2009, 08:20 PM']I think this has already been said, but i'll put in my contribution anyway. Whilst i'm by no means an expert (yet), my mate who's a musical freak on the piano recommended I do interval recognition training. By this I mean I'm now after a month or so getting to the point where in my head I can hear one note after another and know it's a minor third, after which i know its just a 3 fret gap to play what I heard. Whilst I haven't yet gotten it up to the speed that my mate has, since he's been doing it for about 10 years and can go up to a gap of 3 octaves or so, I can now work out a bassline I hear in my head much faster than I used to be able to, although not yet fast enough to play whilst I think.[/quote] Yeah - I can sing intervals or even heard them in my head then play them on the bass..that's partly why I can get away with often not having a clue what notes I'm playing. When I hear chord changes, I can tell what the interval change is a lot of the time. But that does take years, it did in my case too. [quote name='Zach' post='497519' date='May 25 2009, 08:20 PM']instantaneous? what happened to practice practice practice? [/quote] I mean instantaneously knowing what a note is when I fret it, rather than having to keep working it out or worse still, never really bothering as long as it sounds right haha. In the studio last night, guitards were playing a descending chromatic sequence, this was on the fly for me and from the chords they gave me, I had a number of choices, but without knowing the notes on the fretboard, then I had to think hard to work it out..a bit of dissonance/suspense is ok if you can resolve it in the next chord, but that's an exception rather than the rule!

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='497506' date='May 25 2009, 08:05 PM']If you want to expand on what you already know and improve/branch out on the way you play, IMHO fretboard knowledge is the best place to start. Just how deep into fretboard harmony you want to get into is up to you. but a few things you may want to look at... Learn your scales. major, minor (harmonic and melodic), diminished and whole tone, all through 2 octaves run your scales up and down the fretboard (its a good warmup if nothing else!) Learn your modes[/quote] Hi - that's exactly what I've been working on, particuarly the two octave stuff, which is really opening up the fretboard playing wise. [quote name='funkypenguin' post='497506' date='May 25 2009, 08:05 PM']try and apply all this to your improvising (it wont happen overnight!) i never know all the notes im playing in an improvision (thinking more solo based here), but i know what sorts of things are going to work, what sorts of scales are going to work, and where i want to go with the improvised line. If its a bass figure, say a walking line, i tend to know what notes im playing, mainly because they are [b]far more important harmonically.[/b][/quote] Now we are getting to exactly what I am talking about. An example...if I would want to play a swing jazz line over a blues progression, then just knowing patterns doesn't really cut it. So, for example on a quarter note walking bassline, if I was following root, 3rd, 5th, 7th model, there's lots of stuff that can be done to spice it up as long as hitting the root note on the downbeat of the chord change happens..i.e. keeping the foundation that the harmonic structure depends upon...but say I wanted to keep ascending for a while on top of this basic foundation before coming back down for the turnaround..just knowing patterns won't really work.

[quote name='Eight' post='497449' date='May 25 2009, 06:49 PM']Pay more attention to what you're doing in practice time. The only way I've managed to learn the notes that I have done is to pay attention to what the notes actually are when I'm playing stuff for fun. And practice more scales. I love scales - boring as sin to play but playing them up and down the fretboard really beats the pants off sitting trying to learn each note on paper. Having said that, [url="http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id81_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id81_en.html[/url][/quote] I haven't got much time just now for that kind of practice, too much band whoring is taking up most of my practice time just now but it will calm down after June, but I'm trying to line up stuff to work on in advance. The scales thing is SOO important yes, by the way, I recommend a book called "Serious Electric Bass"by Joel Di Bartolo - I just got it last week, absolutely outstanding book, you would love it, it's in notation too. I need to get a life really, I thought I was obsessive with my other hobbies, but I'm taking it to a new level with bass! This seriously cannot be healthy!

[quote name='dlloyd' post='497351' date='May 25 2009, 04:09 PM']That's the exact point. Practicing reading on the bass will sort this out for you. You need to get it to the point where you associate the written note with the played note without having to translate it through its note name. That's how you got to know the piano keyboard, right?[/quote] Hi - reading on the bass hasn't really helped to develop instantaneous knowledge of the fretboard, i.e. where the same notes can be found on different parts of the fretboard, or how to play various fills in different positions. Anyone can learn a piano keyboard very, very quickly, because there is an easy visual reference of where the notes in an octave repeat themselves - i.e. (let's assume C major scale so without going into enharmonic equivalents) before every 2 black keys the immediate key to the left is a C and before every 3 black keys the note to the immediate left is an F. Where you find a note on the stave for a piano key, it relates to a specific PITCH on the piano keyboard. The bass is a different animal in that the same note (pitch) can be found in different locations on the bass plus it is tuned in 4ths - so reading bass music has not been conducive for me to learn the fretboard instinctively. [quote name='dlloyd' post='497351' date='May 25 2009, 04:09 PM']It won't if you don't let it. Some of the best improvisers I know were classically trained. I've also played with classically trained musicians who can't improvise to save themselves. The problem isn't the classical training per se, it's lack of experience in improvisation.[/quote] Yes - ditto and there's plenty of double edged swords in there, but it's another discussion - but a really interesting one at that. [quote name='dlloyd' post='497351' date='May 25 2009, 04:09 PM']You could always play 'find the note'... write notes on bits of paper, put them in a bag, and pick them at random... You pick the specific string then put your hand in the bag, then you find the note...[/quote] YES - it's exercises that will help, not notation. I have had advice from two different schools of thought overall on this topic and some say learn patterns i.e. modes, scales and intervals but not necessarily all the note names - others say, no you must know the note names, then things like modulation and transposing will be easier. EDIT - general point not aimed at anyone specific - reading vs. ear isn't my intended discussion here. The intended discussion is means by which to learn the fretboard inside out, along with opinions regarding benefits of knowing the notes versus pattern/interval approach.

[quote name='steve-soar' post='497338' date='May 25 2009, 03:52 PM']What instrument did you learn to read music for and has it been your main instrument in the past?[/quote] I can read in all clefs (both polyphonic, i.e contrapuntal separation and uniform homophony) and only started playing electric bass recently - so sometimes I will use written notation to learn bass music to supplement ear learning but that's for actually learning already written compositions (and is impeded by having to work out where the notes are on the bass). In context though, my question has a focus around live performance and particularly improvisation, for which I think learning the fretboard (and not just intervals) will possibly be of benefit. Reading notation doesn't come into it in the particular scenario I am describing.

[quote name='dlloyd' post='497293' date='May 25 2009, 02:38 PM']It's a lot easier if you force yourself to read. I get a bit fuzzy on the reading further up the fretboard. Jeff Berlin reckons trombone music is great for practicing reading on electric bass and, in this case, what he says makes sense. It might be worth going through the ABRSM syllabus for trombone and working your way through some of the earlier grades. [url="http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyllabusComplete08.pdf"]http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyl...sComplete08.pdf[/url][/quote] But I can read and it makes no difference whatsoever to live playing. I can read bass clef and know the notes instantly on the stave but I have to figure out where they are on the bass. As with Golchen, I know on a piano keyboard, instantly, every note, which means sight reading and learning music off notation is much easier, whereas sight reading and learning music off written notation on the bass takes a bit more time. For those who said that they do know every note they're playing, do you always also know the full song structures i.e. guitar chords, etc? This is about live playing. The reading thing is handy but it has to be kept in context. Reading too much (in my experience) can cause dependency on written music and create constraints in improvisation skills so for now, my approach is build basic basslines and impro over them, rarely playing the exact same basslines twice. This works as long as I hit the "right" notes when chords change. I don't see how working on reading notation will really nail fretboard knowledge - what it will do is help to understand the relationship between the dots on the sheet with where those notes are on the fretboard - but the notes on the bass clef in any case do not truly represent the real position of the electric bass register in any case. Any exercises that can help with learning the notes would be useful.

[quote name='Buzz' post='497039' date='May 25 2009, 03:23 AM']I'd say there is something to knowing the fretboard quite well, but in all honesty, you only have to learn upto the 12th fret (octave) and know the shortcuts to where the notes repeat, eg, 7th fret on the E string is a B, which is also the 2nd on A, 9th fret on D and the 4th on the G. Or E is open on the E string, 12th on E, 7th on A, 2nd on D and 9th on G etc. Once you know the shortcuts, the fretboard becomes quite easy to work and understand because those shortcuts also work backwards. It also means you can follow the guitarist should they shout out chords, you get told it's a say C chord, then go to the root and work from there.[/quote] Hi, I understand those shortcuts but I still have to work out when I hit a fret, what note I am playing, i.e. I don't instinctively know them. This just seems bizarre. If I want to play certain notes, surely I should know them immediately, before I've even played them, without having to piss about working out what they are. Open string notes and their octaves on the 12th fret are easy as is the 2 across, two up, octave - but learning major and minor intervals on the fretboard is the mathematical approach, it doesn't really help in knowing what notes I'm playing, that approach means I am always having to work out from intervals, what notes I am playing - surely I should know the notes on the fretboard without having to work out when I'm playing, what I'm actually playing.

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='497032' date='May 25 2009, 03:08 AM']No I mean that when playing a line I've practiced or when improvising I don't consciously think 'I've just played an A, the next note is a C and then there's a G' I'm sure there are benefits to knowing the fretboard inside out and if I could be bothered I'd probably make an effort to improve my own ability to point to any note on demand. Did you miss the 'wink' smiley indicating that the last line was not to be taken seriously?[/quote] Hi But when improvising, I think if you know the notes on the fretboard, you know where you're going next or can take a different direction rather than using practiced lines or patterns. This is where I am lacking versatility. For example, if I would want to throw in certain notes (not necessarily roots or even predictable intervals) over a relatively complex guitar chord sequence...then if I know the names of the chords being played and what the notes are on my fretboard, it would be easier in some instances than learning by ear or messing about working out the note names on the fretboard. PS I saw the smiley but I can't read your mind! I am just interested to hear the logic from both sides of the fence - i.e. players that don't know the notes they play and those who know every single note. I am not saying one approach is better than the other, just trying to work out ways to remove the "limitations" that are appearing in my playing. Cheers AM

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='497021' date='May 25 2009, 01:33 AM']Nope Also I don't consciously think 'now I have to put my foot down on the clutch' when I'm driving. Knowing what you're doing is overrated [/quote] Are you saying that there are no benefits in learning the fretboard inside out and ear playing is sufficient for real time stuff?

Yo Bit of a strange one, in that I could carry on not doing much fretboard study and play by ear or I could fix this if I knew how to learn the fretboard properly. Pretty much most of the time, in a band rehearsal/gig context, I don't know what notes I'm playing (unless I count up the strings and work it out) - I just play by ear. I get through studio and gig stuff mainly by using skeleton basslines that I've already constructed (mainly by ear) but then improvising fills, from basic pentatonic and chromatic scales and arpeggios. But I'm getting restricted in terms of playing very similar patterns/fills/intervals a lot of the time - I can only put this down to lack of fretboard knowledge. I seem to be failing on sorting out fundamentals, surely this cannot be good! It seems fairly ridiculous to be getting through full gigs with absolutely no idea most of the time, what notes I am playing. So my question - do you always know, even when impro'ing, every single note you play?

[quote name='phsycoandy' post='496081' date='May 23 2009, 03:43 PM']A few.... Gigging her tonight at a "posh gig"[/quote] Amazing bass. Have you got any recordings of you playing that beast?! Preferably showing the different pickup configs?