Bill Fitzmaurice

[quote name='KASH' post='443693' date='Mar 24 2009, 08:50 AM']Fair enough ...and Alex, thanks for the link mate, good stuff! now...does anyone have this rig or played with it that can give an opinion??[/quote] The 4x10 you list probably has higher output capability than the 1x15, and probably goes lower than the 1x15, so if your intent is to get the most out of adding one or the other the 4x10 is the probable choice. 'Probably' refers to the fact that what limits low frequency output capability is the total driver displacement, and that spec, along with an SPL chart showing actual frequency response, is not available. Anyone who does have this rig will say that the two cabs together sound better than either one on its own. But that's hardly definitive, as pretty much any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. Your only option to know which combination sounds better to you is to try both, side by side.

[quote name='Marcus' post='443096' date='Mar 23 2009, 04:59 PM']Hi Bill..... Of all the bass amp manufacturers i'd be inclined to believe Aguilar....[/quote]Of the hundreds of Theile Small designed reflex cabs loaded with Eminence drivers this is one of them. They have not trod any ground not well covered by numerous others before them. [quote]would I lose any nearfield sound by having driver with a longer throw ?[/quote]No.

You're operating with two basic misconceptions. The first is that 'getting all the watts out of my amp' will make any difference in how loud you'll go, the second is that the specs published by Aguilar are worth the paper they're printed on. That said, you'll get a better result with Eminence 3012HO drivers, which have higher sensitivity than your current drivers, and longer throw. They're only available in 8 ohms, but there's no benefit in going 4 ohms anyway. [quote]I'm sure Aguilar spent a lot of time working out the best driver for the GS/DB112[/quote] Most likely less than an hour. Deciding on a driver for a simple reflex box is a long way from rocket science, and more often than not boils down to whichever Eminence OEM is available at the desired price.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='441316' date='Mar 21 2009, 04:53 PM']Specs are certainly creative things... Alex[/quote]You can't easily tell a 2512 from a 3012, and they very well could be 3012 OEMs. Those have only been available for about 6 months, so if older they're 2512s. While the stock 3012 is rated 450 watts OEM drivers aren't rated as high. Not that they aren't as good, but Eminence only does full bore Klippel testing on their in-line models, so OEM versions that haven't been as thoroughly torture tested are more conservatively rated.

[quote name='ped' post='437036' date='Mar 17 2009, 07:26 AM']Hi mate, I used to have a BAsson 210 cab and although it sounded great, it was extremely heavy and, more importantly, very power hungry.[/quote]True of the Basson ten loaded cabs, which use very heavy drivers that have poor low frequency sensitivity. The B15B doesn't suffer those maladies, being loaded with an Eminence Delta 15 that's of moderate weight and adequate sensitivity. However, the Delta 15 has a paltry 2.7 mm xmax, which displacement limits it to only 50 watts capacity through most of the bass range. That makes the Delta 15 unsuited for use in other than a low power combo.

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='434998' date='Mar 14 2009, 09:43 PM']Why a 210 and 112? I would be inclined to have two of either rather than one of each.[/quote] +1. There's little point in combining tens and fifteens, even less in combining tens and twelves. Find a cab you like the sound of, buy it. If it's not loud enough buy two.

[quote name='KASH' post='433645' date='Mar 13 2009, 09:57 AM']Does mixing 2 different GK cabs (410RBH with 115RBX or vice versa) affects the sound in a positive or negative way? Any thoughts on mixing cabs?[/quote]It's impossible to predict what mixing different cabs will do, and that's the main argument against so doing unless you've tried the specific combination to be sure you like it.

[quote name='eddies left thumb' post='429713' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:38 PM']thanks, seems the best advise is dont think you know more than Mr trace elliot[/quote] Not necessarily. Many manufacturers choose their drivers primarily based on their cost, not how well they work, and the majority of manufacturer's don't design their own cabs, but have it done for them by independent engineers, whose driver spec recommendations aren't always heeded. Most cabs can be loaded with better drivers. The problem lies in finding out exactly what the specs are on the drivers in your cabs to see if there's room for improvement. That's not information most manufacturers are willing to divulge. [quote]i was thinking of upgrading them to the celestion neodymium orange series as i like a well defined bass sound and there description sound right to me.[/quote]The Orange series have very poor specs for electric bass. The Green series are far better, though still less than spectacular.

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='433206' date='Mar 13 2009, 03:54 AM']Probably [/quote]+1. Why are you adding the 1x15? To get more low end. Google Hoffman's Iron Law. Simply put if you want to go lower you must either have a larger cab or a lot more power. If you have two cabs of the same size and same power the one can not go significantly lower than the other while maintaining the same output level, irrespective of what size drivers you use. This goes to laws of physics, which is not trumped by either opinion or advertising. Adding a second cab will get you more output, but so long as it is the same size and driver displacement it really doesn't matter all that much what's in it. And since the average 4x10 has more displacement than the average 1x15 adding another 4x10 will give you more output than adding a 1x15. Which is what I said five pages back.

[quote name='redstriper' post='430714' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:57 PM']OK - so which specific cab/driver combination would you recommend?[/quote] One that uses a fifteen with no less than 8mm xmax. In the electric bass genre you're as likely to be able to get that information as for the Queen to give you her crown. I believe Alex is currently the only UK source that divulges the specs on the drivers he uses.

[quote name='Sharkfinger' post='430158' date='Mar 10 2009, 06:03 AM']Going back to the original question, what advice would we give fekalizatorius?[/quote] The point of this overblown exercise has been that adding any 1x15 willy nilly will as likely work no better than adding a 2x10, and the 2x10 will give a better modular rig. Fifteen inch drivers that actually work better in the low end than his current 4x10 do exist, the trick lies in finding out if one of those drivers is what's contained within a particular cab.

[quote name='stevie' post='429495' date='Mar 9 2009, 12:05 PM']I’m not suggesting anything other than that there is a relationship between fs and cone size.[/quote] Only in the most peripheral way. Size and fs would only be somewhat proportional if all cones were made of the exact same material. They aren't. Otherwise eights with fs values an octave lower than eighteens, and vis-versa could not exist, But they do. To suggest that driver size and fs are intrinsically linked displays lack of a fundamental understanding of driver design. [quote]OTOH, given the ratio of cake height to radius (which is approximately constant between the Pie and the Gateau[x]) what would happen, theoretically, if I had a cylinder with a smaller surface area (cake top) but greater 'excursion' (cake height) - e.g something like Tesco's Value chocolate sponge roll.[/quote] A simpler analogy is that sixteen one ounce weights and one sixteen ounce weight both weigh a pound. Even better: you'll get just as drunk after quaffing two pints as you will with one quart.

[quote name='joegarcia' post='428689' date='Mar 8 2009, 12:54 PM']What exactly is wrong with them then?[/quote] Guitar drivers loaded in a cab of half the volume required shoddily built from inferior materials. But otherwise OK.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='428668' date='Mar 8 2009, 12:29 PM']Did it have some advantage like better treble dispersion, or was it just how to fit speakers in a different sized box?[/quote]Most likely too much weed. California in the '70s, dude. Fender cabs were never shining examples of how to build bass cabs, more often than not being the opposite. This oddity represents their nadir.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='426626' date='Mar 5 2009, 03:12 PM']The fact that they are in the same enclosure might defeat some of the 'advantages' of the 4 vertically arranged layout though.[/quote] There are no advantages to four vertical drivers when there are four more adjacent to them.

[quote name='Sharkfinger' post='426154' date='Mar 5 2009, 08:51 AM']So what I'm getting from this, right or wrong, is that by a rule of thumb the more cone surface area the more LF is produced,[/quote] Surface area is only half of a two part equation. What counts is surface area (Sd) multiplied by excursion (Xmax), the result being displacement (Vd). However. as your assumption is shared by the vast masses, it's one capitalized on by the marketeers, who want you to think that you must go larger to go lower, and in so doing hopefully expanding the contents of their coffers. The other side of that coin is that even amongst manufacturers that do possess a social conscience none are going to refuse to build anything that isn't justifiable so long as there's demand for it.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='426571' date='Mar 5 2009, 01:58 PM']In two columns of 4 vertical speakers. Haha, I see at least one of Bassferret, Claber and BFM coming into this thread to suggest that.[/quote] It doesn't matter, it won't sound any different. The fault with an 8x10 lies in having drivers side by side, not in how they're wired. [quote]Anyway, I have an Ashdown 8x10 that is 4 ohm, and was thinking that if I put an Ampeg style thing into it, so I can run it as two 4x10s and can run both my lower powered valve heads that only do down to 8 ohms into it.[/quote]Unlike SS valve heads have no minimum impedance load, they have a maximum impedance load. Your proposed mod is probably more trouble than it's worth.

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='425690' date='Mar 4 2009, 08:09 PM']For what it's worth... I would guess the majority of bass players don't care.[/quote] They should. He who knows how things work can see past the phony baloney claims of the marketeers. He who who does not is at their mercy.

[quote name='stevie' post='425094' date='Mar 4 2009, 09:16 AM']Bill, you must have missed my earlier post.[/quote] No, I just ignored it. [quote]Bigger drivers, with their lower resonant frequency and superior radiation impedance, are by nature more efficient reproducers of low frequencies.[/quote] Driver size and Fs are independent of each other. Radiation impedance is determined by system Sd, and the air doesn't care if said Sd is comprised of one larger driver or many smaller ones. However, system efficiency is determined by the sum total system motor strength and Sd, so the multiple motors of smaller drivers can and will allow a grouping of smaller drivers to not only exceed the total output of one larger driver via higher total Vd, they will also allow them to do so with less input power via higher sensitivity. The downside of doing so is the generally higher cost of multiple smaller drivers compared to one larger driver when they are of equal quality. However, multiple lower quality smaller drivers can deliver equal or better results than a lesser number of higher quality drivers at a lower overall cost. That fact was the basis for the development of the SVT, although it was certainly not the first example of multiple driver usage.

[quote name='Sharkfinger' post='423161' date='Mar 2 2009, 08:19 AM']Also have a relevant (probably stupid) question: if driver diameter has minimal effect on frequency generated and it's all down to cabinet tuning, why are PA subs traditionally loaded with 15" or 18" drivers, especially in higher power applications?[/quote]Tens and twelves capable of the same response do exist, and with equal total Vd will give equal output. But since it would take more of them to do so it's more cost effective to use fifteens or eighteens. Customer perceptions also are just as pervasive in PA as in electric bass cabs. Most buyers assume that a cab loaded with larger drivers will go lower, so that's what the manufacturers sell. OTOH the most expensive, and best performing, pro-touring subs are folded horns, and in those twelves are the norm. Customers spending upwards of $3k per cab tend to pay more attention to how a cab works rather than what size drivers they employ.

[quote name='bassplace' post='421452' date='Feb 27 2009, 07:33 PM']Aren't tweets an issue too increasing the sensitivity rating?[/quote] They shoujdn't be. The AES accepted method of rating sensitivity is that of the woofer above f3 where the driver is operating in pistonic mode. That generally means from about 100 to 300 Hz, and it removes cone break up and tweeters from the equation. Many bass cab manufacturers routinely ignore that protocol, and rate their cabs at whatever the highest sensitivity is at whatever frequency it may occur, so inflation of as much as 8dB is not at all unusual. At the same time it's de rigeur for them to claim low frequency extension at least 10Hz lower than actual. That sort of shell game couldn't occur if SPL charts were required to back up their claims. I estimate at least half the cab manufacturers don't have the charts to post to begin with, while those who do would rather the results never see the light of day.

[quote name='northstreet' post='421321' date='Feb 27 2009, 03:55 PM']So..........call me Mr Stupid, but if I understand this correctly, the best sound will be obtained by stacking two cabinets, largely regardless of what's in them? The bottom cab will give the bass, the top cab will give the mid-range, and the combined cone area gives volume and perceived bass response.[/quote] More or less, yes. Adding a second cab increases output significantly, with no changes to the amp, and having a higher rig makes it easier to hear the mids and highs. But the frequency duties aren't split to the extent that the bass comes from the lower cab and the mids and highs from the upper, it just seems that way from your vantage point so close to the rig.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='415339' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:23 AM']I think GB made a real mistake with having one light come on for both the soft compression and the final output limiter.[/quote]But they did save 20 cents per rig. Add it up for a year's production run and you might have enough to buy beer for the company barbeque. [quote]Am I being too precious/paranoid, or do I need to get another rig for the jams?[/quote]Running like that won't hurt the amp, and at least you know your speakers are being protected.

[quote name='far0n' post='421024' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:41 AM']I think the best I've had was my Eden D410XLT at 106db. Haven't come across any louder than that from the main manufacturers.[/quote] Without an SPL chart claimed sensitivities aren't worth doodly squat. Eden in particular is famous for making claims that stretch the bounds of reality. Ampeg, OTOH, is very honest. Considering that all manufacturers use the same type cabinets and that there are no magic drivers commercial cabs claiming more than 2 or 3dB higher sensitivity than an Ampeg of similar design should be dismissed out of hand.

[quote name='andrewrx7' post='420828' date='Feb 27 2009, 07:53 AM']Pull the plug from the 15incher, and the bottom thump noticable drops. Pull the plug from the 4x10, and that higher end definition clearly drops. Combined - best of both worlds.[/quote] Your observations are correct, but not the conclusions drawn. If you were to stack a pair of 4x10s and a pair of 1x15s, or a pair of anything for that matter, similar results would always ensue. Unplug the bottom cab and the bass response will fall. Two reasons. First. the raised impedance and reduced cone area reduces output by at least 5dB. When output drops you don't hear bass as well, see: Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. Second, when run alone the height of the top cab above the floor is sufficient to de-couple the system from the boundary reinforcement offered by the floor, and it does so in the midbass where bass impact is perceived to originate from. With both cabs plugged in the cones in the top and bottom cabs operate as one in the low frequencies and there's no coupling loss. Unplug the top cab and the midrange and high-frequencies will fall. Again, two reasons. The first is that same cone area and impedance situation as before. The second is that mids and highs are very directional. and if the source is on the floor they simply pass you by unheard. The notion that adding a 15 will fill in the bottom with a 4x10, or vis-versa, gains credence when one performs the same exercise as you did. But assuming you don't happen to have a pair of 1x15s and a pair of 4x10s lying about to perform the same experiment with different combinations of cabs you simply have no way of knowing that you'll get similar results no matter which combination you may use, including putting a 1x15 atop a 4x10.