Al Krow

24 minutes ago, Jakester said:

 

Well, the science may not be wrong, but in practice if it isn't objectively noticeable, then what's the issue?

 

There's 'ideal in a laboratory setup' and then there's 'shoving all the gear in the corner at the Dog and Duck'. Most gigs tend toward the latter than the former. 

I do have to agree with you. We were playing at a function gig recently going through the DJ's PA set up: he had two RCF 705s with tops on poles directly above. Can't recall our band sounding better overall - we normally don't use subs. I particularly loved the drums and audience were loving it / very complimentary. 

And, in practice, you're never going to be able to A/B your set up because it will only be truly compared once the audience is there absorbing your sound waves - hugely different to an empty venue as we all know. 

I think tbf from some of Bill's recommendations (eg paying someone to be sound engineer at gigs), he's coming at this from the more pro end of the market. We're doing pretty well as a band, but certainly wouldn't be able to afford to bring a sound engineer on board for our gigs. I totally recognise the much greater expertise from Bill and others when it comes to this stuff - it's just that it won't necessarily translate into the semi-pro or hobbyist band set up many of are involved with. 

So if it works and works well, I'd say crack on! Perfection can be the enemy of the good. And a neater, potentially more secure set up taking up less floor space will often trump a marginal improvement in sound quality. If it means you're using a sub to enhance the kick that's likely to be a noticeable improvement to your sound, certainly in larger venues, than not having one at all. 

BeatBuddy drum pedal with SD card, PSU, box and all gubbins in vgc (currently retailing new for around £345), 

In addition, BeatBuddy midi adaptor included (unopened - costing £25+ inc P&P) to facilitate downloading drum tracks.

Price includes RM guaranteed and insured next day delivery.

If they also sound 100% (or even 70%!) as good, I guess that works...

6 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

We only use the sub open air anyway, so it is never much of an issue for us.

In which case putting it against a wall ain't ever really going to be a thing then? 😁

Well I guess if they're pants they can serve as a spare set for our guitar deps 😅

10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Your mics pick up your subs? Apart from the bass drum I don't have any mics that can go down that low

Crossover of 110 Hz?

Your point is probably, however, fair even if your vocal mic is responsive only down to 80 Hz. 

But as you say it is the kick, which is benefiting most from the sub, and kick drum mic position viz the sub would have been a likely culprit. The low-end stage bleed is going to be more range dispersed as well, agreed? 

32 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Lots of things aren't particularly noticeable if you're not able to make side by side comparisons. When you put subs under tops you not only lose boundary loading, by not have them close to a wall, you also can have cancellation notches when they're 1/4 wavelength out from a wall. If they're split by less than two wavelengths you will have power alley comb filtering. That's the science, and the science is never wrong.

There are three reasons why people put subs under mains.

#1: "That's how everybody does it".

#2: "It's the only way we know to do it".

#3: "We don't know any better way to do it/we don't know why it's the wrong way to do it".

 

Now you know.

But if you're putting subs behind the mics in order to have them close to a wall you can get awful low end feedback. 

AliExpress seem to have a deal on at the moment offering the Sennheiser IE300 for around £40. Feels more than a little too good to be true, but at that price worth a punt. I'll maybe see if I can meet up with @dave_bass5 to A/B these against his IE100 and IE400 to see if they are even remotely the genuine article! 

This was quite a helpful A/B

The AS16s seem more rounded/balanced less harsh than the ZS10 Pro but lose some of the detail.

6 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

I’ve done it for years @Al Krow and i’m tired of herding morons.

 

Not all of them, but you get the idea.

Oh I agree that being BL brings a bunch of additional responsibilities, and it would be very nice to be more of a passenger and just turn up well prepared to play at rehearsals and gigs, for sure.

But maybe it's the better option than not being in a band at all, if that's the only realistic alternative, which I'm pretty sure would be true in my case and seems to be the experience for a few of us who are no longer in our 20s and 30s?

On 02/08/2023 at 14:15, SimBass said:

When my Shure 425s broke about 6 months ago I went on my own 'exploration' of cheap IEM. Here are my 'reviews' from using as IEM (not recreational music listening).

 

KZ ZS10 Pro X: (4BA+1DD) (£30 Aliexpress) A big improvement over my 425s but an 'intolerable to my ears' harshness at 8kHz. My wife loves them for vocals but I can't use them for long periods

TINHIFI T3 Pro: (1DD) (£52 Aliexpress) Better and flatter than the ZS10 and the Shures but not quite the clarity of sound stage from the multi driver units.

KZ AS16 Pro: (8BA) (£40 Aliexpress) These are my go to, all the clarity of the ZS10 but without the 'V shape' or '8kHz harsh' (only down side is they are big) - the fact that 'https://crinacle.com/rankings/iems/' gives these the same 'V-shape harshness' description as ZS10, is frankly bonkers (unless the 'Pro' really makes that much difference?) They are drastically different and are way flatter

 

My conclusion
KZ AS16 Pro are my go to and my recommendation, the only down side is thate are big and bulky and less comfy than Shures or T3 Pro. I love these and they have changed the way I do on stage monitoring

TINHIFI T3 Pro are my permanant backup in my gig bag and I occasionally put them in if I know have a long day of IEM since they are just so comfy

KZ ZS10 Pro: Personally I would pay the extra for something with less harshness (although I'm more sensitive to that than some since my wife loves these for singing)

 

I'm really happy with the AS16 and now have no 'itch' for custom moulds, even though I know they may well be better I can't justify the enormous increase in cost over the £40 ones that I now love

Thanks very much for this - I'm looking to get something that is a step up from my KZ ZS10 Pros, which I agree are a little harsh having gigged with then regularly for 6 months or so. So I will be putting the KS AS16 Pro on the shortlist.

I've maybe a budget of up to £150 - grateful for those of you who have previously upgraded from the KZ ZS10 Pros to share where you ended up? @dave_bass5 where have you landed with your own research into these?

10 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

I’ve also noticed that I’m now out of the “band seeks bass player” age demographic on JMB etc.

 

late 20’s/early 30’s.

 

squarely out of that age range.

 

Also, responding to folk and getting started but petering out quickly.

 

Balls to it.

Yeah, I'm sure I would be in the exact same position Andy. I guess my workaround has been to take the lead in putting together the covers bands I've been in. 

PS the JMB age demographic can then actually work in reverse - I tend not to bother considering anyone under 30, haha. And 40+ y/os are very welcome!

10 hours ago, ahpook said:

I've decided to give up on trying to join a band, as over the last maybe 5-10 years I've found it nigh on impossible to get together with people who I want to make music with.

 

My current 'band' has been without a drummer for 6 months, we've not got together for a couple of months, so I feel it's just come to a halt.

 

It all feels a lot of effort for no payoff, over and over again

 

Rather depressingly, I feel this is almost certainly going to lead me to quitting playing altogether as I've no desire to play bass without doing it with a band.

 

I've no idea why it's turned out this way, or why it's so damn hard to find a band. In London FFS ! Shouldn't it be easier with this many people ? Oddly all my musical friends elsewhere in the country are all in bands.

 

Maybe it's me ? I'll not rule out this possibility

 

Anyhow, sorry, kinda jumped on the thread to moan a bit.

Is your current band covers or originals and, before your drummer left, were you regularly gigging and, if so, were they decently paid gigs? 

Just trying to figure out what might be behind the drummer drought you're facing - as you say in London it shouldn't be too hard to find someone, but an originals outfit still in its start-up phase is usually going to be a harder sell than a regularly gigging covers band doing decently paid gigs.

@Silvia Bluejay another one to move to the PA sub-forum please. 

16 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Not quite as simple as that!

Happy to be educated on this! 🙂

Believe me, the bass sounded a very long way from perfect on that particular set at the All Points East festival 😅

"If you have sound crew, hours to set up and soundcheck, all of this can be sorted"

You'd really hope so wouldn't you, haha?! Just been to a festival and the support band to the headliners had some of the worst rumbling bass which almost killed their set. Could see the bass player grimacing, fiddling about with his on board EQ and finally stopping playing altogether. The sound guy deserved to be shot...or at least be sent on an HPF 101 course! 

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

A nicely pumped up kick will sound much better coming from a well placed sub or two. Just don't get carried away. You could easily catch lead kick syndrome.

Ah that's where the track got its name from...only taken me a decade for the penny to drop 😁

Use a balanced cable and dispense with rhe need for a DI box? 

Two RCF 935s sounds awesome for pub venues! We're getting by very comfortably with 912As / 732As, which I'm sure will be outdone by your two tops. 

My personal take, is the main beneficiary to the band sound from the sub itself will be to kick drum albeit also giving more headroom to the tops above the crossover frequency (typically 80Hz / 110Hz).

Are you lacking in volume for any of the instruments or vocals ie do you need the additional headroom for the tops, or feeling that you need more low end kick? Just playing devil's advocate and wondering if your sound is going to benefit much from adding subs for most of your pub gigs?

On 10/09/2023 at 09:11, Paul S said:

I have more gear than I could possibly need or want but, yes, Gas strikes from out the sun when you least expect it.

Very true!

On 10/09/2023 at 09:11, Paul S said:

I decided a while ago that the word 'gas' was filled with negative connotations when it wasn't necessarily a negative state of mind.  I tend to regard it as 'curiosity' now, rather than gas.  So, rather than slavishly 'gassing' for something and then 'giving in' I now think positively 'I am curious about what that bit of gear is like so will buy and try'.  

Like that sentiment a lot, Paul! Curiosity can defo be a good thing and can keep things from going stale, and if you're buying used it can end up costing very little if you don't want to hold onto it. 

Been good to spend a bit of time giving what I've already got a decent try out and if it's not a keeper, either moving it on or replacing it with something that's going to be more relevant to making music with my bandmates (e.g. upgrading the PA and moving on amps & cabs). I've not stopped being curious and trying out new kit, which is a lot o fun, but I've ended up being a net £seller in each of the past 4 years, which definitely tells me I had far too much to start with!

3 hours ago, BassAdder60 said:

The Genzler 4 on the floor has fantastic HPF and LPF on the drive 

 

Really makes a difference to the tone and I can see how useful they are 

 

Yeah the HPF on that seems to be quite neat! From what I've understood it basically allows you to decide the cut-off for frequencies you want distorted and therefore lets you preserve a solid clean low end to underpin the overall sound.

I'd personally prefer something a bit more gnarly for the drive itself, otherwise it would be a tempting, if £spendy, pedal. 

I guess you could recreate what the Genzler is doing with separate pedals eg an hpf and a dirt pedal in the loop of a Boss LS2 or even more easily with parallel chains on offer with some multifx (eg Helix / Boss GT). 

Hi Russ - are these the current Mk4?

Grateful if you could also confirm the weight?

I guess my key learning point having had a similar £800 to £900 budget for a PA, is that if you want something that can deal with vocals really well then get one with a decent voice coil on the compression driver e.g. RCF 732A which has a 3.0" voice coil neodymium compression driver and "offers a unique vocal clarity and sound projection" (according to RCF, anyway, haha) but actually they're pretty decent.

I think you can hear the difference quite clearly in this little A/B

If you can find a pair of RCF 732As used they may just about be within your target budget. We ended up stretching the budget (shared between me and the singer) to get a pair of new 732As for the band - singer is now definitely sold on 732As justifying the extra we spent over the 912As I'd bought.

51 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

The 732 has a bigger voice coil on the compression driver allowing a lower crossover frequency that clears the important female vocal area. That may be why she prefers them. 

So particularly noticeable for female vox even more so than male vox?

On 11/03/2023 at 17:23, Al Krow said:

I managed to source a pair of new 732A Mk4s for our band at a reasonable price with the assitance of @Pirellithecat, so I owe him an A/B comparison of my 912A vs the 732A.

The 732A are about 40% dearer, but as @EBS_freak mentioned, the 3" horn provides a significant step up for vocals and mids over the 1" horn on the 912A in terms of articulation and power. If you can afford the extra then I think it's going to be well worth it. 

 

Link to a sound test comparison 912A vs 732A Mk4

 

On 12/03/2023 at 14:54, Phil Starr said:

Hey Al, how did you record that? There's so much more detail coming out of the 732's I'm surprised it's that obvious, did other songs show the same level of contrast? I've learned over the years not to judge on a single song. I've tuned up crossovers to make my test tracks sound good only to find that the 'improvements' didn't always transfer to other pieces of music. The bass sounded nice on the 912's which I think have a more rigid case than the 732's

On 13/03/2023 at 10:16, EBS_freak said:

 

Im saying nothing.

On 13/03/2023 at 11:59, Jack said:

I'm surprised it's THAT obvious, I wonder what other factors are at play. However, I/we said as much

8 months in and our singer is now actively preferring the RCF 732As band PA over my 912As for her vocals. It seems we've ruined her ability to put up with "budget" PA speakers! And amusing that my previous line up were content with 310As for years (although the drummer did comment that the 912As were a massive step up from those, first time he heard me using them).

Just thinking aloud: if I upgraded just one of my 912As for a 932A so I had 912A + 932A, I'm guessing that should significantly eliminate the gap between a pair of 912As and a pair of 732As?