Al Krow

11 minutes ago, pete.young said:

Pedal with a clean blend, or an LM2 and stick the drive pedal in one of the loops?

And the nice thing about the Boss LS-2 is that it has individual volume controls so you can then tailor your mix of clean and drive to suit.

Could be a neat solution for the OP in fattening his sound with minimal loss of low end?

IME low-end suck with bass drives, resulting in "less" bass in the mix is something I've often found I've had to guard against in a live mix.

6 hours ago, Linus27 said:

I have thickened my sound up in the past by adding a smidge of Octave and a smidge of drive. It doesn't need much, otherwise it sounds affected but just a bit of each will thicken the sound.

 

Its also a very common recording technique to double track the bass and leave one clean and the second with a bit of drive to make a lovely warm, thick tone. I was shown this back in the late 90's by Mark Wallis who recorded It Bites, Travis, U2, Primitives albums etc. and have recorded this way ever since. Sting also did it in the Police but he doubled up with an electric bass and a double bass. More recently, I recorded with a fretless Precision with flats and then double tracked with a fretless Jazz with rounds. Created a nice kind of cello sound. So a smidge of Octave and a smidge of drive will add a nice thickness to your tone.

What's the best way of getting that double track sound in a live setting? Is it easily do-able?

I'm thinking a multi fx with parallel paths may be simplest solution in terms of moving parts? Or perhaps a signal splitter back into a mini mixer?

But don't know if that's going to do much more than having a drive pedal with a good clean blend?

2 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

Also listed at Thomann: https://www.thomann.de/gb/zoom_multi_stomp_ms_60b_590550.htm - £138 plus a tenner shipping, availability listed as "on request".

 

The Bax listing now says "Delivery within approx 15 workdays" and it's down to £135.

Saying 14 weeks when I clicked on the Bax website! Which ties in with Zoom saying the pedal will ship in July. Liking the £135 though. But not getting the thinking behind making the patch editor only available on iOS ☹️

6 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Bax have the MS60B+ listed at £143, link to the listing is down but still visible if you look under Zoom bass effects:

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/bass-multi-effects-pedals/zoom

Thanks - I don't trust the "delivery within 8 days" though. Going to wait until they have it in stock.

I paid £104 for a new MS-60B when they first came out in 2013, which would be around £160 in today's money, so this doesn't feel all that bad given that it's saving me getting a Helix Stomp 😄

2 hours ago, JohnDaBass said:

Do we know if the MS 60+ talk is  Tonelib and  Zoom Guitar lab?

All I can find is "Handy Guitar Lab App for iOS"  which isn't going to be great for us who have PC / Android. Hmmm...that could be a real downer / potential deal breaker. 

Apparently relatively straightforward midi access, which could make it a breeze to use live?

33 minutes ago, ProjeKtWEREWOLF said:

As a punter, I hate it. I saw several tribute acts recently at a medium sized venue, who all played direct into the PA. I was stage front, and it was strange and lacking in Energy. 

 

As a musician, I like to feel my clothes flapping in the air coming off the cabs. It's ROCK AND ROLL! 

I'm a recent returnee to playing though and haven't arrived at the point where I need to decide on this approach. I might feel different. 

That's an eye opening perspective. I'd assumed that 'cos we're providing the audience with a well-balanced and tight FoH sound, rather than the sometimes mush/wall of sound that you can get from an unbalanced back-line set up, the punters would generally be enjoying the gig more rather than less? Certainly we've had many good gigs in terms of audience response - so that's not been a particular issue for us so far.

Do you think the lack of energy you felt in the audience was due to the PA set up? I.e. if you were stage front you might have been in a "sound well" (dunno if that's even a proper term!) and those further back were getting the full benefit of the FoH sound? I'm guessing the bands themselves were giving out the expected level of performance energy themselves?

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

IME not being able to "feel it" when playing live, normally means that either the songs aren't very good or that they are simply not to the musicians' tastes.

 

Everything is a lot more exciting when played loud. I found in the past that I have been a lot more forgiving about the material I have been playing in rehearsal and at gigs simply because of the volume it's being played.

 

With the band I played with in the 90s and with one of the bands I play with currently we rehearse at what I would term "slightly louder than normal hifi volume". This way the songs have to feel good/exciting at a bit louder than our audience would listen to them from the CD or record at home. My thinking was always if we can enjoy playing the songs at reduced volume then they are going to sound awesome at a gig.

 

I don't know if that helps or not, but from my experiences of playing covers, I found a lot of the material tedious and the excitement that comes with the band being loud was the only way to keep me interested. Of course once I had realised that, it was became another reason to stop playing covers. 

 

42 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Bands like ZZ Top have been ampless on stage for years. IMO the lack of "soul" and not "feeling it" etc comes from the players being out of their comfort zone and letting that affect them.

I'm not so sure that I can dismiss it when my bandmates comment on "not feeling it" as being simply not liking the songs, or them being out of their comfort zone - particularly when we've had many gigs with exactly the same material played really well and tightly that have not elicited the same reaction. 

It's been a more common sentiment since we abandoned back line entirely at the start of this year.

I think there's maybe a deeper emotional connection to what sound we are hearing and feeling as musicians, which feeds into our stage performance and enjoyment of playing live?

14 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Our guitarist doesn't use IEMs for that reason, but for me, IEMs are a revelation. The band are too loud to not wear hearing protection anyway, which means you already have to jam something in your ears and with the IEMs it gives me the confidence to sing properly, can't do it without them, it sounds terrible (not that it is great with them!)

Interesting you mention your guitarist also...seems to be a particular issue for them in being disconnected from their sound.

IEMs vs Guitar Player. Anyone else experience this? : r/livesound (reddit.com)

Putting everything through FoH and using IEMs (or some using IEMs and one using a small stage monitor for guitar) = great for a balanced, articulate audience sound. Minimises feedback and doesn't overwhelm the IEM with stage sound.

But I'm finding bandmates commenting that they're not "feeling it" at gigs. In particular the guitarist (and the rest of us tbh) missing the richness of sound that comes from hearing a quality guitar amp. Not missing the mushy wall of sound that comes from just relying on the guitar amp at full audience gig volume though! 

Is there a best of both worlds where we use backline at moderate stage volumes, but DI / mic up the kit to go through FoH and let the PA do the heavy lifting?

Have any of you gone back to using a combination of backline and PA support after trying the silent stage approach and found that it improved your gigging experience?

@EBS_freak - excellent sine wave MkII post, thanks Russ!

"The MS-60B+ allows you to split output signals. This allows you to output with Amps/IR’s to a PA, while simultaneously outputting without Amps/IR’s to your amplifier."

That's very neat!

Zoom MS-60B+ - ZOOM Europe (zoom-europe.com)

I think this may just end up ticking all three boxes of solid core tone, presets and latest (by Zoom standards anyway!) chipset - I'm looking forward to getting this!

Zoom MS-60B+ - ZOOM Europe (zoom-europe.com) - looking good!

courtesy @TRBboy 😊

29 minutes ago, krispn said:

What are you missing that your current set up isn’t offering? What other preamps have you tried and what was it about them that didn’t work or do you want to mix it up. The Zoom is handy but do you want a stand alone, single pre unit with tubes and transformers and no need for presets?

 

I ask because I have been using a preamp set up (into a cab ir) direct to doh and I’m very pleased with it. It’s a tube based unit and has a nice character which I feel gives some extra dimension in the mix and it feels responsive under the fingers, no latency etc. That little bit of grit I can get from it blends into things nicely in the mix and doesn’t sound sterile going direct (and that was before the cab ir was on my board).  
 

There’s tons of pre amps out there. It all depends what’s important - latest chipset, one good solid core tone, presets…

 

It's a good question, Gav. You're right there's loads of preamps out there and it would be easy for this to become another "my favourite pre-amp is..." thread. 

As you'll maybe remember I've had a few preamps over the years (e.g. 2Notes le Bass, Tech21 VTDI, BDDI and Q\Strip and Helix Stomp, as well as a couple of other Zoom multis) but all used in conjunction with an amp & cab set up. I've only really been using a pedal board direct to desk these past 18 months. I'm not sure that anything is necessarily missing from my current sound (yes it really is 90% in the fingers, haha!), but I'm also conscious that I've not invested much on that part of my set up and just wondering if it's worth upping my game on that side of things? So I'm keen to find if those of us going direct to FoH have found a particular pre-amp is making a positive difference to their sound and what else they've tried.

Good solid core tone, is probably #1, presets (#2) and latest chipset (#3) are always nice to have but, usually but not always, tend be multifx territory. I'm maybe thinking a quality preamp for a solid core tone and a little Zoom MS60B plus when it's released in a couple of months could tick all the boxes, assuming that a dedicated preamp should be able to out do a Zoom pedal for core tone, which it should do.

What's your latest pre-amp squeeze that's hit the mark for you?

3 hours ago, police squad said:

I have recently bought an Ashdown Pro DI pedal to do exactly this.

I normally use the RM500 evo2 but with my Police tribute going IEM I feel I can ditch the bass amp and cab

I havent actually tried it yet (at a gig) but it sounds good in my practice place, I just need to mount it to a pedal board or maybe just used it as a table top thing (so it doesnt get mucky)

Did you consider any alternatives when deciding Ashdown and, if so, what tipped you in favour of this one? 

7 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I’ve got a SansAmp programmable and a Zoom B1ON. I use the Zoom mainly but sometimes use the SansAmp with my P bass

Are you hearing any difference to your FoH sound or IEM clarity from the Sansamp, or is it just different, Phil?

47 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

Whats the Zoom B1Four not giving you, other than XLR?

You had a play with the cab mix and mic?

Joyo suff is usually great and not just for the money. Tidal Wave or Monomyth, or a Behringer BDI21 (unmodded or modded) might be a most basic of all places, cheap and XLR out.

It's a good question. 

But I'm thinking the quality of FoH and IEM sound from using a higher end preamp should be better? So I'm keen to find out if that's folks real world experience from having tried various preamps themselves.

9 minutes ago, police squad said:

I've just ordered a set too

Oh dear...I seem to have started something...gonna be in so much trouble if you guys are not hearing the upgrade benefit of the ZARs over the ZS 10s I'm finding - albeit from purely a home A/B and pre-gig! 😂 

As it says on the tin 🙂 Appreciate there have been a load of pre-amp threads, but was looking to have something specifically targeted for us silent stagers using IEMs.

I've been using a cheap as chips Zoom multi-fx (B1-4) to provide a half-decent pre-amp, as a step up from going directly into the desk, but I've recently been thinking it maybe a slightly daft corner to be cutting! 

What quality, ideally compact from my perspective, preamp are you guys & gals using and what benefits to your sound in the mix are you getting from them vs any others you've used?

@EBS_freak love it if you got a pair and gave them a comparison to some of the high end IEM ear pieces you've got? Fact is you know your way around this stuff better than most!

If they get 80%+ of the way there for 10% of the price, that's a ratio many of us starting on the IEM journey would likely accept as a very decent trade off.

20 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I blame you two if I am wasting my money ZARs. Incidentally what shop did you buy them from?

Scroll back a page or so to the links provided on Ali Express by our esteemed colleagues - almost half the price they are on Amazon.

And seriously for £50, they were worth a punt. Just turns out to be one of the better punts I've taken this year, haha!

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Well, that is handy as I bought them on your recommendation

Haha nice one! Look forward to finding out whether your view of them vs the ZS 10s ties in with what I'm hearing 😊

Actually @Woodinblack - amusingly I've just managed to locate my mislaid ZS 10s (glad I did mislay them, as it turns out, haha).

Here's a pic of them side by side - the ZAR's (on the right of the pic) have a similar footprint but are deeper to allow for their better armatures. I've not got anything sensitive enough to measure their weights - but reasonable to assume they will be a little heavier.

I've spent a little bit of time A/B'ing with a Spotify track (the start of Maria by Blondie as it happens!). There's a level of additional detail coming through on the ZARs that isn't there on the ZS 10s - on the guitar, most certainly on the drums (which sound flatter on the ZS 10s) and a richer tone to Debbie H's vox. The ZS 10s are decent enough, but the ZARs are unquestionably a step up and will be my goto pair going forward.

5 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

When you say bulkier, is that also heavier? I always hae the problem of one of my KZZ10s falling out, bad ear shape I guess, but it doesn't help that its heavy.

Like you, I had a problem with just one of my KZ ZS10s falling out which is a bit weird, but I don't think we're the only ones to have mentioned this! 

I think the ZARs must be a little heavier as they are bigger overall in size (I mislaid my ZS10s a short while back so I don't have them on hand to directly compare). Ear shape will definitely play a part, but the better seal for me on these I suspect also means a better overall fit and therefore less likely to come out than my ZS 10s. I'll find out on Sat night when I can put them through their paces with a live band.

On 09/04/2024 at 16:22, Al Krow said:

Ah, just missed your suggestion @cetera, but thanks a bunch for digging that out and maybe someone else will benefit. When I was looking yesterday I kept getting "not available in your territory"!

Have just ordered on the link Michael kindly provided (for which many thanks). £54 delivered including 20% VAT. Definitely worth a punt, at that price, for the current flagship KZ I reckon?

KZ ZAR IEM ear pieces arrived today.

Maybe they just suit my ear shape, but they are a better fit and, although bulkier, they provide a much better seal which was immediately obvious. The very much reduced "leakage" from external sounds is also going to have the added benefit of providing better ear protection, which is more than worth the entry price of these for me.

I've just A/B'd with my Sennheiser IE300 which I found comparable to, if a little quieter than, my KZ ZS10s, and I can hear bass & backing tracks so much more clearly with this KZ ZAR pair.

Very happy with them - already feeling like they could be a contender for the best bit of gear I'm going to get in 2024!