Torben Hedstrøm

[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1393150382' post='2376601'] Sorry, gotta cut in here - PEDANT ALERT! With reference to 'analog amplifiers'. Class D amps are analog amplifiers. Class D amps do not by definition convert analog audio into digital audio and back again. They still contains transistors, just like your big old GK 800RB or your EBS HD350 etc, the difference is a clever way of turning the transistors on and off to increase efficiency (hence the loss in weight!). Class D amps ARE NOT BY DEFINITION 'DIGITAL AMPLIFIERS'. It's just a name that people have come up with, just like Class A, Class B, class A/B etc which categorises a particular design philosophy. I've had conversations with guys from Crown recently who've been telling me about their new Class I and Class J amps which can fit multiple hugely powerful amps onto tiny chips. But they don't contain any A-D or D-A conversion to do the amplification. So in terms of Class D amps having no design philosophy, that's not true, otherwise all Class D amps would be the same, right? And clearly they aren't, and clearly some are crap and some are unbelievable. It's just that the parts are all very small, because the efficiency gain means that they can be small. Some class D amps do have built in digital EQ and effects, but there's no reason these couldn't be put into the audio path of a huge tube amplifier at the input stage. It's just a question of whether that would tarnish the perceived 'purity' of the brand or not. You'd never see a Matamp with a digital amp sim built in, but there's no reason why they couldn't do it. Anyway. As you were :-) [/quote] I am certainly not going to embark in a passionate discussion on amplifier design. Admittedly I don't have the necassary expert knowledge on Class D (I,J...) designs to do so. When I think of Class D, I instinctively associate the term with the 'digital amplifier' products emerging in the HiFi world some years ago. I think the first ones was based on the PWM technology, and was referred to as digital... Will we ever see a 'real' digital amplifier, effectively meaning an D/A converter capable of supplying the neccessary current at all times ?. Dunno... Maybe they already exist... If they are any good I could see alot of applications for them... Regards Torben

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1393110811' post='2376404'] Good question Torben I wonder if it would be a good idea to approach it into two different directions - amps and speaker cabs. It's kinda easier I find to think about the kinda school of tone each maker is shooting for in separate directions. Looking at some of the brands you've listed Hartke for instance have a reputation for really great amps, but less people seem to get excited by their cabs; a few years back Epifani were the vogue cab builder, and Glockenklang (or Bell sound if we translated it ) have a rep of really nice flat amps... but don't seem to stock their cabs anywhere. [/quote] I think it would be a very good idea to divide the two, it makes sense . Regarding amps, I got to thinking last night... It will be interesting to see how the Class D amps will change marketing. The analog amps still have some kind of design philosophy on the poweramp, but Class D is basically just modules... And the amp manufacturer properly doesn't build these in-house. So I guess the marketing will be on preamp and features ?. Regards. Torben

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1393091884' post='2376160'] I think I've posted this a couple of times on various threads but its worth checking out if you havnt already ... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/media] [/quote] Yeap... Very much an engineering type of approach to the audio. They state some very good points, but they relate themselves mainly to the concepts of frequency and phase - Coming from a controlled source (a sound card for instance, or a preamp). The only real comment they had on (room) acoustics I found quite interesting. After many many years of having tried/owned HiFi systems, varying greatly in value, I have have now ended up with speakers building on the omnidirectional concept. Hard to get that real pinpoint stereo image with them, but benefit is that they fill the room with sound in a way I have not experienced before, and they are not very sensitive to room placement of the listener. They do sound kind of funny though, if you move your ear into direct firing direction of the drivers... Completely off balance tonally . Regards. Torben

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1393096901' post='2376220'] You're looking at cabs to pair with a Genz Benz head right? I'm sure there are going to be differences between various cabs based on what drivers are in them and if they feature tweeters that can be adjusted and to make life simpler for myself I'd probably just go with a Genz Benz cab - I imagine that the head was probably tested (and optimised?) mostly with these anyway? [/quote] Exactly correct... However, we don't have GB in this particular area of the globe, and I am assuming that shipping a cab is significantly more expensive than an amp. So I was kind of beginning to look what is available locally .

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1393092352' post='2376163'] While your other points are completely valid, if you set very many amp's EQ to what is nominally flat (e.g. 12 o'clock) and run it through a frequency analyser you'll find that they are a pretty long way from flat. Some will only even approach a flat response at extreme settings. Many manufacturers do build a 'shape' into their amps, which may be over-ridden with judicious use of EQ but nevertheless the amp remains biased towards that tone. [/quote] Entirely true... In the world of HiFi amps (of which I have owned quite a few) I would definately claim that there are major differences between the tone 'ideal' from manufacturer to manufacturer. Which is better or worse is another discussion all together . Besides frequency response (and emphasis) there is at least one other parameter affecting how I percieve sound: Dynamics... And dynamics spread over the frequency spectrum. Ofcourse this parameter is evidently greatly affected by the acoustic surroundings... But in my opinion also by the amp and speakers .

[quote name='BigBassBob' timestamp='1393094876' post='2376195'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQX4Ow2NHQ[/media] [/quote] I stand corrected then (again)

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1393077045' post='2375899'] There have been several studies that shown that in blind tests people cannot reliably identify coke and pepsi despite claiming to prefer one over the other. MRI scans have show that peoples brains react differently depending which one they think they are drinking (and not which one they are actually drinking) and hence their actual perception of taste varies according to what they think they are drinking. I personally think this effect accounts for about 80% of the supposed "special character" of audio equipment be it music amplification/hi-fi/whatever. [/quote] This was pretty much one of my major points... Blind testing usually comes up with some very surprising results . I would say, however, that when it comes to (good) HiFi equipment there definately is a tone signature specific to each manufacturer... Especially when it comes to speakers. But then again HiFi is a completely different approach to sound than pro. equipment... For instance you usually won't find eq controls on the better end of amps in the HiFi segment. Regards. Torben

Topic could have been raised before... But searching (in blindness somehow) for cabs to match a GB Shuttle 12.2, I have been reading all kind of opinions on the web, and as always the amount of material consumed is pretty much directly proportional to the level of confusion suffered. As stated in my signature, I am currently using EBS gear. Always liked the sound of it somehow, A week or so ago I moved my Neo 210 up to ear level, to do get an impression of what it 'actually' sounds like on it's own. A real nice detailed sound, as long as it wasn't pushed beyond it's limits, but a surprisingly lack of actual low end (complements the 115 very nicely though !). Reading the specs the EBS 210 it covers down to 50 Hz. which sounds about right to me. So getting to the point: Do different manufactures have a kind of 'signature tone' ?. I know they do in the world of HiFi, and reading on the web you will see alot of people thinking that, for instance, Aguilar has 'scooped mids' (what is that exactly ??). EBS has a reputation for being HiFi-sounding and so on. How much of this is subjective to the brand you think ?... Anyone ever tried doing an actual blind test of... Say... Different 210 cabs ?. If manufacturers have a 'house tone signature' what would it be ?... My own very subjective impressions of the brands (pretty much purely based on prejudice) would be something like: [list] [*][b]EBS[/b]: Punchy, detailed, loud without being too sophisticated. A bit on the bright side of things. Good for Rock and metal... [*][b]Aguilar[/b]: I somehow associate it with the sort of Motown old school sound. Never saw a metal bassplayer using Aguilar for instance... [*][b]Epifani[/b]: Jazzy, Jaco like tone... Detailed and crisp without being too 'in your face'. Good for the sophisticated stuff. [*][b]Hartke[/b]: Same ballpark as EBS, but less 'High end'. Played some Hartke stuff back in the 90's, and have fond memories of it actually. [*][b]GK[/b]: Tough one... My impressions of the brand would be somehow loud, less detailed, distinct midrange, good for dirty stuff, but not very versatile. [*][b]Mesa Boogie[/b]: Big sounding... Round, detailed, classic American old school rock... 'We are not afraid of large diameter drivers or Chevy V8's' - 'There is no substitute for air displacement' kind of attitude. I like it, but I don't want to carry it around [*][b]MarkBass:[/b]One of the brands, where I was dead wrong... Up until very recently impression was 'mordern, middy lack of real low end tone'. Got my hands on a MB amp, and it was actually very round and punchy sounding - still maintaining detail. [*][b]Glockenklang:[/b] When you pick a company name like that, you are asking for it... [/list] These are just some examples... There are ofcourse plenty more brands that I have a predefined opinion on. Now, I am sure that I am not the only one who has these definitions... Branding being what it is, most of us are subjective to being biased I think. What are your experiences and impressions ?... Is there such a thing as a 'tone signature' from the major brands, and what would your predefined imprissions and/or experience be ?. Regards. Torben

Not being a MarkBass user or endorser, I am truly amazed of the level of dedication coming from the guy. Even considering that all of this holds some commercial value...

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392820285' post='2373076'] Really? [size=4] [/size] [/quote] Whooops, one too many digits there. That would be roughly £87 (knowing this from a quote I got recently).

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1392815905' post='2373015'] When those comparisons are made it's the corporations with 'million dollar R&D budgets' that come up short. First off, no bass cab manufacturer spends that kind of money on R&D. For that matter, a very small percentage of their budget is devoted to R&D with respect to technical improvements. Most of it is spent on market research for what really sells cabs, which isn't how they sound. It's how they look. [/quote] You could ofcourse be right, this day and age endorsment and other PR stunts sell (probably also in the older days, come to think of it). But if companies like MarkBass, Genz Benz (R.I.P), SWR (R.I.P), EBS, Glockenklang etc. Don't have engineers doing actual optimizations for both cabs and amps, I would be very surprised !. I mean, as I read from the Barefaced website, they are not making any actual groundbreaking discoveries... They are driven by enthusiasm (and obviously know how !!) doing what they do. And I see that as a VERY positive thing (same way as I am a big user/funder of OpenSource software - Because I usually get better support and products from a bunch of people passionate about what they do). Regards. Torben...

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1392811895' post='2372941'] who? i know what you mean but a lot of the forward steps in bass amplification down the years have been smaller companies innovating. [/quote] I would dare say that most companies in this business started out small. That is actually one of the very cool things about the bassplayer community IMHO... Alot of the luthiers and other producers have a very personal relationship with their customers.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1392816203' post='2373022'] Barefaced do have a 30 day return if you're not satisfied & Alex is a member here too. [/quote] I saw that, and I am tempted... If claims hold true I would be thrilled !. But postage for a 30 kg. cab is something like £870 or so I hear, and that not only add significantly to the price - It is is also quite far from a 'free' trial if I return it

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1392799341' post='2372778'] I think it is very good that a very good name manufacturer comes on here and spends time answering questions but I feel BC tends to milk this and wants to poke its nose into manufacturing and commercial decisions that frankly aren't its business and the maker might not want to disclose either. Tech specs are one thing but take them at face value and try not to scare the guys off. We've done it before with bass names so try and not make this a place to avoid. I just think having established a line of comms, we then ask too much If we respect the kit, then realise this is a business decsion and judge accordingly and you'll buy or you wont but other makers don't come here for the scrutiny and its a fine line between decent PR and chasing the few that do come here, away................ just my 2p... [/quote] +1 Realizing that it ofcourse has some degree of PR and commercial value, I truly respect that the head of MB takes time to read through a thread like this and answer questions politely. Giving exact production specs (weight) and vouching for the quality. Regardless of the country of manufacturing it makes me want to look closer at MB stuff !!.

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1392751895' post='2372376'] Barefaced has some useful articles on this. http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Volume-displacement.htm http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Real-world-sensitivity.htm There are also Alex's columns for BGM up there. [/quote] Good reading indeed... And some very interesting points. With all due respect for Barefaced (I really really like the concept and the story... Never heard their products though)... When I read their rundown on the laws of physics, and how to work around them, it strikes me that they don't really dig deep into the compromises they make in their designs. They do describe the pros and cons of, for instance, the passive radiator design... But every design short of the absolute optimum has compromises... So where do Barefaced cut corners ?. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that their products are excellent, but they are measuring themselves against corporations with million dollar R&D budgets, and production quantities that likely lowers the price pr. unit to a level well below what Barefaced can get from their subcontractors. Ofcourse they don't have the same expenses for advertising and PR in general either (they seem to be very popular without...). But still, if you as such a small company claim to 'know better' than R&D departments with huge budgets and decades of experience, I get curious as to how and why... As stated, all designs IMHO contains compromises !. And just to emphasize: I am in no way trying to degrade Barefaced products, or their brands... I don't have the tech knowledge nor the experience with their products to do so in any way !. I ma just trying to use common sense and logic... Regards. Torben