Halford's Special Re-finish

[Spoombung]

I've just stripped a bass down to the bare wood and I gather the next thing is is seal it - so I'm asking what is the product most of you use?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Spoombung

[steve-soar]

Is it going to be a solid colour, or a natural finish?

[Spoombung]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='859156' date='Jun 6 2010, 07:02 PM']Is it going to be a solid colour, or a natural finish?[/quote]


Well, I'd like two options; one for a natural finish. and the other for some artwork/painting

[wesfinn]

tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk do cans of nitro sanding sealer which is great the also do grain filler which is essential for ash otherwise the grain/pores will soak up all the finish!

[Spoombung]

[quote name='wesfinn' post='859588' date='Jun 7 2010, 09:52 AM']tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk do cans of nitro sanding sealer which is great the also do grain filler which is essential for ash otherwise the grain/pores will soak up all the finish![/quote]

Do you mean this stuff?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Lacquers-and-Paint/Spray-Paints-and-Lacquers/Lacquers-and-Thinners/274-Clear-Cellulose-Sanding-Sealer/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/L...duct-flyer.html[/url]

I think it needs spraying on. Is there anything I can paint on then sand down (I think the wood is basswood).

[wesfinn]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='859654' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:05 AM']Do you mean this stuff?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Lacquers-and-Paint/Spray-Paints-and-Lacquers/Lacquers-and-Thinners/274-Clear-Cellulose-Sanding-Sealer/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/L...duct-flyer.html[/url]

I think it needs spraying on. Is there anything I can paint on then sand down (I think the wood is basswood).[/quote]

Thats the stuff but you can buy it as an aerosol if you click the aerosols and spray paints section. its easy to apply

[Spoombung]

[quote name='wesfinn' post='859661' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:09 AM']Thats the stuff but you can buy it as an aerosol if you click the aerosols and spray paints section. its easy to apply[/quote]


Just to make sure is it this?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Lacquers-and-Paint/Aerosol-Lacquer-and-Paint/167-Clear-Sanding-Sealer/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/L...duct-flyer.html[/url]

Are you sure it doesn't require the 'spray handle attachment'?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Finishing-Supplies/187-Aerosol-Spray-Master/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/F...duct-flyer.html[/url]

Is it practical to go straight to this one and avoid the sealant?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Lacquers-and-Paint/Aerosol-Lacquer-and-Paint/159-Nitro-Cellulose-Clear-Lacquer/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/L...duct-flyer.html[/url]

[soopercrip]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='859692' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:42 AM']Just to make sure is it this?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Lacquers-and-Paint/Aerosol-Lacquer-and-Paint/167-Clear-Sanding-Sealer/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/L...duct-flyer.html[/url]

Are you sure it doesn't require the 'spray handle attachment'?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Finishing-Supplies/187-Aerosol-Spray-Master/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/F...duct-flyer.html[/url]

Is it practical to go straight to this one and avoid the sealant?

[url="http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/Lacquers-and-Paint/Aerosol-Lacquer-and-Paint/159-Nitro-Cellulose-Clear-Lacquer/Detailed-product-flyer.html"]http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/L...duct-flyer.html[/url][/quote]

It comes with two standed aerosol spray tops one coarse one fine.
Used it on walnut and cherry with good results on subsequent top coats of clear laquer frome tonetech. If in doubt speak to or email Barry there
Although this [url="http://www.wickes.co.uk/Quick-Drying-MDF-Primer/invt/214271?source=123_4"]http://www.wickes.co.uk/Quick-Drying-MDF-P...71?source=123_4[/url] is an MDF primer
it works fine for wood as MDF is a more difficult material to paint so this is more adhesive and isn't spray if you would prefer to brush it on
A similar spray would be OK too

Andy

[skelf]

Worth making sure that all the products you want to use are compatible with each other. Putting down a base coat that does not like the top coat leads to adhesion problems etc.

There are plenty of brush on lacquers available you could also seal the wood with epoxy this seals the wood and fills any pores.

Alan

[RichardH]

I used [url="http://www.areyoulocal.com/bass_preciazz2.asp"]epoxy to seal my refin of a P body[/url] - worked really well and makes the grain really "pop" - however, you need to be very careful that every square mm is covered, or the top coat that goes on will get "sucked" into the grain, and you end up with what they "fish eyes" (IIRC), whihc will never take the top coat.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='skelf' post='859864' date='Jun 7 2010, 01:59 PM']Worth making sure that all the products you want to use are compatible with each other. Putting down a base coat that does not like the top coat leads to adhesion problems etc.

There are plenty of brush on lacquers available you could also seal the wood with epoxy this seals the wood and fills any pores.

Alan[/quote]


Yes, Alan, I remember from my art school days a[i]crylic primer with oil on top=okay, oil primer with acrylic on top = no way![/i]

Got some questions for you:

I've never seen the fabled 'epoxy' (that Americans talk about all the time) for sale anywhere in the UK....?

1. Where do you get it?

2, Would PVA work as a primer/sealant, I wonder - especially if I'm going to paint on the bass?

3. What 'brush on lacquer' would you recommend?

[Spoombung]

[quote name='RichardH' post='860165' date='Jun 7 2010, 06:30 PM']I used [url="http://www.areyoulocal.com/bass_preciazz2.asp"]epoxy to seal my refin of a P body[/url] - worked really well and makes the grain really "pop" - however, you need to be very careful that every square mm is covered, or the top coat that goes on will get "sucked" into the grain, and you end up with what they "fish eyes" (IIRC), whihc will never take the top coat.[/quote]


That is helpful, thanks, Richard.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='soopercrip' post='859708' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:54 AM']It comes with two standed aerosol spray tops one coarse one fine.
Used it on walnut and cherry with good results on subsequent top coats of clear laquer frome tonetech. If in doubt speak to or email Barry there
Although this [url="http://www.wickes.co.uk/Quick-Drying-MDF-Primer/invt/214271?source=123_4"]http://www.wickes.co.uk/Quick-Drying-MDF-P...71?source=123_4[/url] is an MDF primer
it works fine for wood as MDF is a more difficult material to paint so this is more adhesive and isn't spray if you would prefer to brush it on
A similar spray would be OK too

Andy[/quote]

Thanks, Andy. The MDF primer interests me. Do you know whether it is transparent or white? The website doesn't tell.

[soopercrip]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='860188' date='Jun 7 2010, 06:50 PM']Thanks, Andy. The MDF primer interests me. Do you know whether it is transparent or white? The website doesn't tell.[/quote]

It dries transparent matey

[skelf]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='860173' date='Jun 7 2010, 06:38 PM']Yes, Alan, I remember from my art school days a[i]crylic primer with oil on top=okay, oil primer with acrylic on top = no way![/i]

Got some questions for you:

I've never seen the fabled 'epoxy' (that Americans talk about all the time) for sale anywhere in the UK....?

1. Where do you get it?

2, Would PVA work as a primer/sealant, I wonder - especially if I'm going to paint on the bass?

3. What 'brush on lacquer' would you recommend?[/quote]


Hi
West Systems epoxy is available easily in the UK,have a look on Axminster tools they sell a small starter pack. It does have a slight amber tint to it which I actually like.

PVA is a pretty much a standard sealer but I have never used it on wood and then painted it.

I know Morrels do a brush on version of their spray lacquers and I am sure most companies do. But again I don't use that version as I spray every thing.
Axminster have a wide range of sealers and lacquers it would be worth a look. They also have a very good help line so you would be able to ask about the products.

Alan

[Spoombung]

I might as well show you how far I've got with it.

The original bass came in black with hideous, afflictive, bitter, black, bleak, cheerless, comfortless, deplorable, depressant, depressive, discomforting, discouraging, disheartening, dismal, dismaying, dispiriting, distressful, distressing, dolorific, dolorogenic, dolorous, down, dreary, funereal, grievous, joyless, lamentable, melancholic, melancholy, mournful, moving, oppressive, painful, pathetic, piteous, pitiable, poignant, regrettable, rueful, sad, saddening, sharp, somber, sore, sorrowful, touching, triste, uncomfortable, woebegone, woeful, wretched gothic stickers:



This is the control cavity. I'm not looking forward to putting it all back together.

Anyway, after some radical reshaping of the horns (I took tons of wood away) it looks like this:

[Spoombung]

Another shot of my masterful rasp-work:

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='860173' date='Jun 7 2010, 06:38 PM']Yes, Alan, I remember from my art school days a[i]crylic primer with oil on top=okay, oil primer with acrylic on top = no way![/i][/quote]

And...

Oil base + Cellulose topcoat = recipe for disaster

Acrylic base + Cellulose topcoat = playing with fire

Beware the rattle-can acrylics too, a lot of these have deeply unpleasant solvents that can & will make a mess of priming/undercoats if the solvents differ.

For a pure brushing clearcoat, try Rustin's Gloss Varnish. Water based, goes on like tar but once dry can be cut back with wet & dry used wet & then polished. Top quality brushes help too.

Pete.

[Spoombung]

Now... as you can see, stripping the bass has revealed a nasty looking flaw in the wood that has been filled with sawdust and glue (I'm assuming it's probably basswood as it has hints of yellowy green streaks in patches).



I now have two thoughts:

1. Cover up the flaw with a veneer and simply go through the sealant. primer/lacquer process

2. Paint with acrylics (an artwork/design that covers the flaw and extends on to the front but leaves some wood bare (I think the top horn looks quite pretty)

Hence the numerous questions about sealants and primers...!

[skelf]

Greenish tinge could make it Tulipwood (poplar).

[Spoombung]

Well I'm really confused! So far these are the suggestions:

1. PVA
2. Aresol sealant
3. MDF primer
4. Rustin's Gloss Varnish
5. Epoxy

Which one do I pick??? HELP!

Remember the idea is to paint over the flawed area with acrylic paint and have the majority of the body transparent, showing the wood. Help me make a decision!

[Mikey R]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='861073' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:09 PM']1. PVA[/quote]

Normal PVA isnt waterproof, so if you want to go over with acrylic based paint, then it will be reactivated. Also, PCA doesnt dry hard unless its a very thin film, so you might need to build up the coats.

[quote name='Spoombung' post='861073' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:09 PM']2. Aresol sealant[/quote]

I guess you mean the airosol laquer? Would work, but youd need to construct some kind of booth.

[quote name='Spoombung' post='861073' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:09 PM']3. MDF primer[/quote]

Only really works on MDF, which your bass isnt.

[quote name='Spoombung' post='861073' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:09 PM']4. Rustin's Gloss Varnish
5. Epoxy[/quote]

The last two are options, epoxy dries very hard so you may struggle to sand it. However, both of these two dont burn in, which means if you sand through, which you are likely to do, then you may get white witness marks.

So, can I add option 6:



available [url="http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Chestnut-Shellac-Sanding-Sealer-19766.htm"]here[/url]. Its shellac, so you can build up the coats and not worry too much about sanding through, as the next coat burns in with the previous, and its designed as a sealer.

Ive not used it, but Im planning on giving it a try on the next bass, to seal in the stain before I add the top coat.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Mikey R' post='861281' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:50 PM']So, can I add option 6:



available [url="http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Chestnut-Shellac-Sanding-Sealer-19766.htm"]here[/url]. Its shellac, so you can build up the coats and not worry too much about sanding through, as the next coat burns in with the previous, and its designed as a sealer.

Ive not used it, but Im planning on giving it a try on the next bass, to seal in the stain before I add the top coat.[/quote]

Thanks for the your, Mikey.

I'm not sure if I could paint on top of shellac with acrylic, though.

I'm noticing there are some vast differences of opinion going on here and disagreements about what will work. I'm surprised there is no standard way of priming the wood, painting on it, then laquering.

I've Googled regarding painting on guitars and there is very little information at all. Whether that's to do with people being secretive about their techniques or using a different methods I can only guess.

[Mikey R]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='861470' date='Jun 8 2010, 09:03 PM']Thanks for the your, Mikey.

I'm not sure if I could paint on top of shellac with acrylic, though.

I'm noticing there are some vast differences of opinion going on here and disagreements about what will work. I'm surprised there is no standard way of priming the wood, painting on it, then laquering.

I've Googled regarding painting on guitars and there is very little information at all. Whether that's to do with people being secretive about their techniques or using a different methods I can only guess.[/quote]

Im getting my information here [url="http://thewoodwhisperer.com/category/video/finishing-videos/"]http://thewoodwhisperer.com/category/video/finishing-videos/[/url] - Have a look at vidios 47 and 73, he often refers to shellac as the universal binder. In 47, he puts a water based polyurethane / acrylic varnish over it, so its very unlikely that it will interfere with acrylic paint.

[Spoombung]

Mikey -

Maybe this would be better as it's acrylic anyway, and is bound to accept acrylic paint on top?



There is also cellulose version :



(I'm not sure what cellulose is or if I could paint on top with waterbased acylic)

Here is the product comparison:

[url="http://www.axminster.co.uk/compare_products.asp"]http://www.axminster.co.uk/compare_products.asp[/url]?

Edited June 10, 2010 by Spoombung