Graphite Vs Wooden Necks

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='846790' date='May 24 2010, 07:36 PM']Disproportionate number of neck issues? Satin neck with rosewood board & painted headstock? Sounds like you need to call 01206 868150 for a quote! [/quote]



Actually the first was a 1994 Fender "boner" 22-fret Jazz which twisted to **** the first summer I toured it (1995) and I swore from then on I would never buy another Fender that wasn't used (I've stuck to that rule).

Next was an early Warwick Corvette Proline (serial 000014) where the 7-piece neck laminate was mostly hard maple with stringers of wenge (IIRC). The truss rod broke, so I sent it back to Warwick and they sent me back the bass with a new 7-piece neck of mostly wenge which worked much better, plus a new case and a T-shirt and some new wax and half a dozen sets of 100-40 roundwounds.

Another truss rod that caused me major problems - but this time because the neck is too stiff - is my current Warwick '91 Thumb. The truss rod rattles with the changing seasons. I occasionally re-set it to shut it up (but without the truss rod change making any change to the neck itself which hasn't altered in the 8 yeasr I've owned it) but I am getting tired of doing so.

I think I might drive it up to Ripon this summer to see if Jim Fleeting can fix it [i]permanently[/i] for me.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='E sharp' post='846749' date='May 24 2010, 05:50 PM']Early graphite necks could warp , as graphite has a memory . Steve Smith , who used to work with Bernie Goodfellow , fretted the Stingray for me (it was originally a fretless Modulus neck) , and told me that molecular memory was the reason why a few early carbon necks warped .[/quote]
Molecular memory applies to something that has been bent into a form that is different from its original state. A graphite neck is molded out of a resin/fabric composite. There isn't preexisting state for the molecules to bend back into. The fabric conforms to whatever shape the mold is and gets held in place by wet resin. The only exceptions to this form of construction are some of the Moses necks which are made mostly out of carbon dust impregnated resin and can be subject to movement with temperature extremes. But they're still formed from a mold like the other necks. (The Moses Steinberger necks are pretty good though, much stiffer.)

I understood that calculating the right recipe for sufficient stiffness in the phenolic fingerboard was tricky. Mistakes don't become apparent until long after the bass has been set up and sold.

Status, Modulus, Alembic and Musicman have all had well documented issues with this. Yes...even Rob Green is human!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='846811' date='May 24 2010, 07:55 PM']I disagree. I think if all basses could come with graphite necks, they'd receive much wider praise. Of course though, its cost that stops this being possible.

Just imagine all the cheapo basses that could have benefited from a nice graphite neck! If not just for the tone, for the stability and dead-spot-destroying effect they give![/quote]

Two responses to this:

#1 Let's be fair it's cost versus benefit. If it was essential, carbon fibre would've replaced wood by now. As it stands, operations like Status Graphite while well-respected remain small businesses catering to a small market of specialists. And given how much quality pop music was recorded with wooden-necked basses (and how much of these recordings were subsequently sampled for electronic music) it's difficult to argue the case for advanced composite-necked bass guitars.

#2 I've asked specifically in this thread about whether graphite necks can make dead spot problems completely go away, and this is the first response I've had. Dead spots are a big deal to me because I use a lot of effects and dead spots are quickly shown up by tracking effects like the ubiquitous Boss OC-2, rendering certain notes in certain positions useless.

Do graphite necks eliminate this issue? Other graphite neck bass users seem less than keen to endorse this particular performance improvement.

[foal30]

try a Steinberger and see if you like it
seriously, a challenge anyone to play a proper L2 and not think it's cool

same with a well set up, flatwound Precision
they sound good, real.

if I could only gig with one bass ever again it would be the L2
get out of jail bass in an number of ways.
the fact it plays in tune across the board has to be a good thing eh?

[Metalmoore]

If i could get my hands on a graphite necked bass then i would gladly give it a wee play, but dont think there is any (too busy with exams to look properly)

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847056' date='May 24 2010, 11:47 PM']...#2 I've asked specifically in this thread about whether graphite necks can make dead spot problems completely go away, and this is the first response I've had. Dead spots are a big deal to me because I use a lot of effects and dead spots are quickly shown up by tracking effects like the ubiquitous Boss OC-2, rendering certain notes in certain positions useless.

Do graphite necks eliminate this issue? Other graphite neck bass users seem less than keen to endorse this particular performance improvement.[/quote]

Okay. I'll [i]try[/i and give a reasoned response to this one.
My MIA Jazz has Posiflex rods (graphite) in the neck. It still has discernable differences between how some notes ring and others... don't ring as much! Stand up 7th fret on the E string (B in standard tuning)

The Vigier doesn't seem to have many, and those that there are are much less evident. Less evident to the extent that you tend to question your technique first and wonder about dead spots afterwards.

The Streamline? I can't find any. I reckon that's due to more than just the carbon/graphite neck, though.
Firstly, it's headless - so no resonating headstock to dampen out certain frequencies.
Second, it's only got four materials used in its construction; The Carbon/Graphite cloth, the resin, the epoxy filler inside, and the (presumably) steel of the truss-rod. All of whose consistency can be controlled during manufacture.
Thirdly, it's a monocoque- Neck and body are one fabrication. Does improved energy transfer thorugh the body help?
Lastly, it's relatively lightweight compared to other basses- that may influence matters also.

One final point. I've played about 12 Vigiers. A mix of S2, S3 and S4 Passions and Arpeges, including 3 or 4 Excesses.
Whilst I wasn't that keen on the Excesses (apart from one!), The rest have proven to be remarkably consistent. I played one that was 5 later than mine in the line of production, and but for the finish and the Maple wings, it might as well have been mine.
Likewise the Statii. The Streamlines vary VERY little from one to the next.

Seems like you can have consitency (up to quite a fine point) from such instruments, but the corollary to that might be a loss of "individual character", but as we all know, the greatest contributor to the overall sound is the player and their playing style!

Hope that (sort of) answered the question!

[RhysP]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847056' date='May 24 2010, 11:47 PM']Do graphite necks eliminate this issue? Other graphite neck bass users seem less than keen to endorse this particular performance improvement.[/quote]
When I said "evenness of response" in an earlier post that's part of what I meant.
I can only go by my own basses but neither have any deadspots that I can determine.
I've also had access to an original Steinberger and an early all carbon Fibre Status for a considerable length of time and would say the same for them too.

[crez5150]

I can only compare my Status to the previous bass which was a through neck 5 string Warwick thumb..... The status feels much more alive, really notice how responsive effects are especially my Deep Impact and various other synth pedals. They track really well but this may also be due to the 18v preamp which I believe greatly helps

With the Warwick.... it was hard work and there were still dead spots

Edited May 25, 2010 by crez5150

[Kiwi]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847056' date='May 24 2010, 10:47 PM']Do graphite necks eliminate this issue? Other graphite neck bass users seem less than keen to endorse this particular performance improvement.[/quote]
I've had a Moses jazz neck with deadspots. Deadspots are caused by the mass of the neck vibrating in sympathy with a played note. However the majority of monocoque constructed (rather than resin) graphite necks are stiff enough for the deadspots to not coincide with notes on the fingerboard.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847056' date='May 24 2010, 11:47 PM']Two responses to this:

#1 Let's be fair it's cost versus benefit. If it was essential, carbon fibre would've replaced wood by now. As it stands, operations like Status Graphite while well-respected remain small businesses catering to a small market of specialists. And given how much quality pop music was recorded with wooden-necked basses (and how much of these recordings were subsequently sampled for electronic music) it's difficult to argue the case for advanced composite-necked bass guitars.

#2 I've asked specifically in this thread about whether graphite necks can make dead spot problems completely go away, and this is the first response I've had. Dead spots are a big deal to me because I use a lot of effects and dead spots are quickly shown up by tracking effects like the ubiquitous Boss OC-2, rendering certain notes in certain positions useless.

Do graphite necks eliminate this issue? Other graphite neck bass users seem less than keen to endorse this particular performance improvement.[/quote]

In answer to your question, I've had nine graphite neck'd Status basses in my time & I've never had a deadspot problem on any of them.

[clauster]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='847326' date='May 25 2010, 11:28 AM']In answer to your question, I've had nine graphite neck'd Status basses in my time & I've never had a deadspot problem on any of them. [/quote]

But have they all been headless?

I don't ask to stir things up, but because I'm in a similar position to the OP. Genuinely considering a status neck for the P-bass of my dreams.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='847326' date='May 25 2010, 11:28 AM']In answer to your question, I've had nine graphite neck'd Status basses in my time & I've never had a deadspot problem on any of them. [/quote]

Never had a deadspot or never had a deadspot "problem"?

I've had basses which appeared fine on their own but the deadspots became obvious once I stuck an octaver between the bass and the amp.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847534' date='May 25 2010, 02:30 PM']Never had a deadspot or never had a deadspot "problem"?

I've had basses which appeared fine on their own but the deadspots became obvious once I stuck an octaver between the bass and the amp.[/quote]

Just to clarify;

The deadspots only become apparent when using the OC-2, right? What notes are you playing- Whereabouts on the fretboard- up high? down low? Does the OC-2 have an octave down & 2 octaves down? and how do you blend them with the original signal. Just trying to get a feel for what makes the deadspots become suddenly obvious, and are the notes the same on every bass?
I don't use an octaver, I can never get one to track well enough, and they never seem to sound "right" to me (and I don't think it's due to deadspots!)

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='clauster' post='847520' date='May 25 2010, 02:17 PM']But have they all been headless?

I don't ask to stir things up, but because I'm in a similar position to the OP. Genuinely considering a status neck for the P-bass of my dreams.[/quote]

Mine are both headed, no deadspots..

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='847586' date='May 25 2010, 03:29 PM']The deadspots only become apparent when using the OC-2, right? What notes are you playing- Whereabouts on the fretboard- up high? down low? Does the OC-2 have an octave down & 2 octaves down? and how do you blend them with the original signal. Just trying to get a feel for what makes the deadspots become suddenly obvious, and are the notes the same on every bass?[/quote]

Typically it's that standard area on a bass guitar - somewhere between C# and E on the G string. Sometimes (on Fenders and Stingrays mostly) I've also found them around G# on the E string. Soloing the octave down voice you will find that the pedal gates your note very quickly after you play it - this is what makes it very obvious.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847606' date='May 25 2010, 03:45 PM']Typically it's that standard area on a bass guitar - somewhere between C# and E on the G string. Sometimes (on Fenders and Stingrays mostly) I've also found them around G# on the E string. Soloing the octave down voice you will find that the pedal gates your note very quickly after you play it - this is what makes it very obvious.[/quote]

Ok, that's improved my understanding of the issue.
The G# (4th fret) E-string seems to be a common one for Fenders IIRC.
6th, 7th, 8th & 9th frets on G string, I'm not so familiar with. Stingrays are (semi) notorious for having the potential to have weak G strings.
Have just tried widdling about using the octave on my Korg Pandora- through headphones. Aside from tracking issues (!) I can detect none of the gating effects you refer to on either my Streamline, Vigier or Warwick Infinity. My Jazzes are cased up at the mo' but I'll try 'em.

Edit- Have you ever tried using a FatFinger or some similar? They fit onto the bass' headstock and can help to even out dead spots by altering the mass of the headstock. They're no panacea- they seem to mute harmonic content and can make neck-dive worse, but it may help..

Edited May 25, 2010 by Lfalex v1.1

[clauster]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='847601' date='May 25 2010, 03:42 PM']Mine are both headed, no deadspots..[/quote]

Cheers Rich

[Chris2112]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='847056' date='May 24 2010, 11:47 PM']#2 I've asked specifically in this thread about whether graphite necks can make dead spot problems completely go away, and this is the first response I've had. Dead spots are a big deal to me because I use a lot of effects and dead spots are quickly shown up by tracking effects like the ubiquitous Boss OC-2, rendering certain notes in certain positions useless.

Do graphite necks eliminate this issue? Other graphite neck bass users seem less than keen to endorse this particular performance improvement.[/quote]

Both the basses I had with graphite necks were headed, and both were free of dead spots. In fact, the Status Stealth, which was essentially a bass made of graphite, is without a doubt the most full and even sounding of all the basses I have ever owned.