Volume!

[thisnameistaken]

I went and jammed with our guitarist and drummer last night, unamplified. My god I've never picked so hard in my life and the drummer was doing his best to keep it down.

I was wondering what are the most common steps to get more volume out of a bass?

Our guitarist was saying that installing a second soundpost can help. I was thinking higher action to give the strings more room to move (although my action isn't super-low anyway). The strings themselves are Evah Pirazzis (orch), could they be replaced with something louder?

Any other common tricks you can suggest?

[harmonicon]

Yeah, raising the action can definitely help. As for strings, I think it depends on what style of music you're playing - different strings will be louder with different techniques (and I have no advice to give about specifics).

Unfortunately, there's only one simple and good answer: get an amp. That's assuming no one else in your group will give, which is silly. Despite modern improvements in strings, the bass is an instrument that's hundreds of years old, while the other members of your group are using comparatively new instruments by design. For instance, is your drummer playing on hide drum heads? Probably not - synthetic is going to be A LOT louder and also sound with more higher partials, helping to lose you in the mix.

Basically, this isn't a problem just for you - it's a group problem that requires a group solution, I would think. Or, you know, you could just get an amp (I don't like it personally, but it's become the standard).

[Beer of the Bass]

Don't go with the second soundpost! AFAIK, that's a method used by the rockabilly/psychobilly dudes to reduce feedback (allowing higher amp volume) when amped up by deadening the bass acoustically. I find when jamming in noisy acoustic situations the single most effective thing for me is finding the right RH technique, though there is a certain minimum string height for getting that to work. But yeah, modern drummers probably are louder than in the pre-amplification days. Not only because of the synthetic heads and brighter cymbals, but because modern styles use the bass drum much more than people used to.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' post='836426' date='May 13 2010, 05:57 PM']Don't go with the second soundpost! AFAIK, that's a method used by the rockabilly/psychobilly dudes to reduce feedback (allowing higher amp volume) when amped up by deadening the bass acoustically.[/quote]

Hmm. That's advice given by a guitarist who I'll stop paying attention to then! He used to play bass in a psychobilly band a couple of years ago, I think he's confused himself.

I have seen a suggestion that a looser soundpost can make a bass louder. I guess I'd have to take it to a chap and see if that would help.

The idea is that if I can get a few suggestions that a chap could do for me, then I'll take it to a chap with the suggestions and see what can happen.

[quote name='harmonicon' post='836412' date='May 13 2010, 05:40 PM']Unfortunately, there's only one simple and good answer: get an amp. That's assuming no one else in your group will give, which is silly.[/quote]

I think they will give. TBH after we'd given up trying to make the drummer's kit any quieter we started planning what he could be using in lieu of a kit. He doesn't want to use a cajon, so I think we're going to build him a little cocktail-style kit. It should mean we can make him as quiet as we need him to be.

I would still like to play LOUDER though! Oh come on everybody likes louder!

Edited May 13, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[bassace]

Unless you are playing with a quiet trio in an 'intimate' environment you will need to be amplified. Drummers are OK as long as they don't insist on whacking the kick drum two or four beats to the bar. It should be used for accents - IMO and in jazz. Keyboards are a real problem; they are capable of creating a wall of sound over the bass. Jazz guitarists can also be a problem if they insist on using fat chords over all six strings. Then there are monitors. I play in a band that has a monitor facing me and the keyboard player turned up so loud that I can't hear myself and the guy in front says I'm too loud!

If you are using backline you need a good set up that gives you a strong middle. There are some who will criticise the piezo pickup but you will find it very effective in this regard. You will also be heard if you have a DI to front of house but the bands I work with seem reluctant to put the bass through this. I've even had professional(?) sound guys telling me 'we don't put the bass through the PA'.

I often ask someone in the audience about half-way back how the bass is sounding. Sometimes I get a surprise!

Hope this helps.

[thisnameistaken]

Well we don't have keys to worry about, just guitar, drums, bass and three voices. There will be no amplification or monitoring, we'll be playing in the street more often than not, if we were at a venue we'd use amps/PA (and I do have a bass max fitted to my bass, I just haven't used it yet) but AFAICT once you start plugging things into things in the street that's when you run afoul of councils and jobsworth PCSOs so we'd rather not give them the ammunition.

Edit: I should add we're mostly playing old rocksteady tunes, so stuff like this:



The beats are fairly simplistic, guitar will be chopping ska/reggae rhythms most of the time, so I only really have the drums to compete with, sonically.

Edited May 13, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[bassace]

If you're outside, you may be pleasantly surprised how well a DB carries without an amp. Give it a try, I've done it quite successfully. A good set of pizz strings will help. EP should be fine, or Spirocore Mittels.

[Greydad]

With just guitar and drums you shouldn't have any problem being heard un-amplified. FWIW if the guitarist is playing an acoustic and the drummer uses say just a snare and kick (or just a snare! which we've done) and PLAYS USING BRUSHES if necessary you should be fine. I've manage to hold my own with two guitars, mando, dobro and various other instruments without too much of a problem. Drumming with brushes is the way to do it as far as I'm concerned it sounds cool and is just the right volume and feel for an acoustic band.

[bassace]

[quote name='Greydad' post='836852' date='May 14 2010, 08:52 AM']With just guitar and drums you shouldn't have any problem being heard un-amplified. FWIW if the guitarist is playing an acoustic and the drummer uses say just a snare and kick (or just a snare! which we've done) and PLAYS USING BRUSHES if necessary you should be fine. I've manage to hold my own with two guitars, mando, dobro and various other instruments without too much of a problem. Drumming with brushes is the way to do it as far as I'm concerned it sounds cool and is just the right volume and feel for an acoustic band.[/quote]

Sorry to disagree but (is it just me?) I have an aversion to brushes. They don't give the crispness that sticks give, they seem to mask my playing and I never have a problem cutting through stick playing. Playing against brushes is like playing through porridge.

[Greydad]

[quote name='bassace' post='836876' date='May 14 2010, 09:17 AM']Sorry to disagree but (is it just me?) I have an aversion to brushes. They don't give the crispness that sticks give, they seem to mask my playing and I never have a problem cutting through stick playing. Playing against brushes is like playing through porridge.[/quote]

Interesting - must admit I haven't found it a problem so far!

[TPJ]

Sack the drummer and just play bass and guitars.

You'd be surprised how well it works for all styles. The listener's brains fill in all the stuff they know should be there.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='TPJ' post='837052' date='May 14 2010, 12:12 PM']Sack the drummer and just play bass and guitars.

You'd be surprised how well it works for all styles. The listener's brains fill in all the stuff they know should be there.[/quote]

I think the drummer might be a bit part-time but we do need to get the mix right for when he's there. The brushes suggestion I'm not sure about, maybe multi-rods - do they make much of a difference?

I'd still like to make my bass sound louder if poss.

[Beer of the Bass]

The drummer in my old band used to use rods for acoustic gigs - they're pretty good for low volume without sounding like brushes. The bass drum will be loud as ever though. A small bass drum, (maybe a converted floor tom?) could help too. A mate of mine uses a bass pedal beating a samsonite suitcase for busking, and packs his snare and hi-hats inside to move it all around! He is a bit odd though...

[thisnameistaken]

Yeah I think we're going to end up with a floor tom with two angled legs for a bass drum, the third leg bracket will hold some "snare"-type drum. The drummer's other hand will be occupied with a shaker of some sort.

Perhaps I am too optimistic but I was disappointed that everybody immediately gave up on this thread and instead offered suggestions for making drummers quieter.

Edited May 15, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[endorka]

I'm quite happy to offer suggestions, but they'd all be based around the book I've already plugged on the other current double bass thread, and I don't want to become a bore :-)

There are quite a few things you can do that will improve the volume of the double bass in there, and I can vouch that they worked on my bass. Some are partly to do with reducting the weight of the instrument, meaning the strings have less mass to vibrate, and can therefore move more air. One suggestion is to replace the steel endpin with a wooden one - a drumstick is suggested, but the existing endpin holder on my DB was only 10mm in diameter, and dowel of this size was too weak. 10mm carbon fibre rod works well though, and I definitely noted an improvement in volume, as did others in the orchestra.

Optimising the bridge will help - ensure that it is correctly positioned, and that the feet are flush on the body. The centre of the feet should align with the inner notches on the f-holes.

Try not to have any extra hardware such as pickups on the bridge, as they act as mutes. If you have the jack socket for the pickup mounted on the afterlength it wll interfere with the resonance of the instrument, so put it somewhere else, such as on the tailpiece.

Tuning the afterlength - the part of the strings between the bridge and tailpiece - can have some interesting effects.

Get bridge adjusters installed and you can easily change the string height, which usually affects the volume. Note that higher does not always mean louder, as the bass can sometimes become "choked".

Moving the soundpost relative to the bridge can change the tone and relative volume of each string. It is fairly involved but it does work; I found that by going for a less deep tone, the power of the instrument was moved towards the overtones, and it sounded brighter and louder, the sound I was after.

There are probably some other easy and cheap tweaks, I'll post if I remember any.

Most of these are fairly incremental, and each will generate some improvement if done correctly. It can take a bit of tinkering to find the best setup for each factor, but when they were all optimised and combined the increase in volume was substantial. You'll know you are on the right track when your bass becomes more prone to feedback when ampified - this essentially means your instrument has become a more efficient resonator.

Quickest of all: it may also be worth examining your pizzicato technique to see if you are getting the most from the instrument; ensure you are playing with the sides of your fingers, using the weight of the forearm to pull the fingers through the string, and play nearer to the end of the fingerboard to make the sound punchier and help it cut through.

Jennifer

[Doddy]

I find that by plucking lighter,I get a fuller,louder sound than if I start plucking hard.I also have pretty high
action,which I find gives a better tone and more volume,but makes it harder to play up in thumb position.
If you pluck too hard,you tend to 'choke' the sound more than if you would if you were to play lighter. I
read an old BP interview with Christian McBride and Chris Wood,and they talked about this.

As far as drummers,I love playing with a good brush player. The problem is a lot of drummers nowadays,
don't know how to play with them.Brush playing is an art in itself.

[endorka]

[quote name='Doddy' post='837830' date='May 15 2010, 01:39 AM']I find that by plucking lighter,I get a fuller,louder sound than if I start plucking hard.I also have pretty high
action,which I find gives a better tone and more volume,but makes it harder to play up in thumb position.
If you pluck too hard,you tend to 'choke' the sound more than if you would if you were to play lighter. I
read an old BP interview with Christian McBride and Chris Wood,and they talked about this.[/quote]

Yes, definitely. I also find there is a point of diminishing returns where I can be plucking the beejesus out of the instrument, getting maybe 10% more volume for 200% more effort. Learning not to do this pointless exercise when the volume gets high is worthwhile.

[quote]As far as drummers,I love playing with a good brush player. The problem is a lot of drummers nowadays,
don't know how to play with them.Brush playing is an art in itself.[/quote]

So true. I love doing acoustic gigs, and have never understood why some drummers become negative when you ask them to play with brushes.

Jennifer

[thisnameistaken]

Wow, loads of great feedback there thanks Jennifer! I also heard that it's best to avoid touching the body of the instrument to avoid damping it with your knee or whatever. I'm trying to do that too - just letting the corner of the rib sit against my waist and that's the only contact.

Endpin is a surprising suggestion to me, I didn't even think of that. I have an alu pin in there at the moment, it's pretty thick, over 10mm surely maybe 15mm.

I might have to get that book too. I must confess I am not a practical geezer at all but I am always curious and it's nice to know how things work.

Doddy: Yeah I have some experimenting to do in that regard. I definitely noticed some approaches made me more audible and didn't feel like a huge exertion. I got up the next day though with bruises on the back of my picking hand (bit worrying) and a sore right shoulder and bicep of all things. So god knows what I was doing

Edited May 15, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='bassace' post='836876' date='May 14 2010, 09:17 AM']Sorry to disagree but (is it just me?) I have an aversion to brushes. They don't give the crispness that sticks give, they seem to mask my playing and I never have a problem cutting through stick playing. Playing against brushes is like playing through porridge.[/quote]

It all depends on how dynamic the drummer is. I love brushes for swing (for example) and hate drummers killing the feel with sticks. Ugh!

In terms of volume, I use my Genz Shuttle 6 with one cab - I use something like 40 percent of the volume and play the db very gently. No point in working too hard when you have plenty of amplification to do it for you, is there?

[bassace]

Just as a post script to the volume thing, I was playing a freebie outside Hook Norton library this morning. With a fiddle player and guitarist, each of them going through a Headway acoustic amp. Started with a nice balance, we all heard each other - then the bloody bells started up next door. Turned out it was a visiting team and they were booked for three hours. Grrrrr