External Preamps

[nugget]

Hi - I need some advise as i've got myself a little confused....

I recently upgraded an olp 5 string fitted with a SD on-board preamp to a fully passive Villex pickup. The Villex is simply stunning, word cant describe the difference...but... in a couple of songs we do I miss the active high end zing when popping. I'm not a slap monster and the Villex is 100000000% better for fingerstyle.
I was thinking about going for an external preamp (or putting an onboard in a box) but all reviews seem to be based around using them as DI boxes rather than using to boost a passive. Thinking about Sadowsky or tone hammer, please suggest others if you've got experience.

question is - the Villex is a high output passive with very clever and superb mid control but I cant see why it shouldnt work with an external preamp... I really dont want to loose the woody natural sound of the villex (true bypass prefered). Do these external preamp work as will as on-board ones? why do they get marketed and reviewed more as DI box. Also many recommend putting them into the return FX loop?? you dont do this with active basses - so why go in the FX loop if they are just the same as on-board preamps??

I guess from reading this you have realised I've got myself confused.
Anyone got one for sale? Anyone lives near Worcester that would let me try one out????

Thanks all
Nugget

Edited February 14, 2010 by nugget

[LukeFRC]

why not just turn the treble knob up on the amp to get the top end zing? It's not like you dont have a good amp.

?

[nugget]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='744914' date='Feb 14 2010, 04:07 PM']why not just turn the treble knob up on the amp to get the top end zing? It's not like you dont have a good amp.

?[/quote]


I'm not 100% sure the amp is not the the problem - the story deapens.... I've tried cranking the trebble on the amp, I have to turn it to max to get somewhere close to the same level of highs i was getting active with the run eq flat and then i get a load of hissing!! I've also noticed a big drop in volume from the amp, yes i know passsives can be lower output than active pickups but i turn the input gain up until the red clip light starts to flash when playing hardest so the input level into the amps preamp is the same. The drop in volume (approx 25% down) and lack of highs happened when changing pickup. Original pickup and preamp are inthe post to new BC owner so I cant slot them back in to try. It's a very strange coincidence for the amp to play up the same time as changing pickup?? I only have one bass and one amp so can't try another setup. Cab seems fine is is measuring 8.2ohms so I dont think one speaker has dropped out.

Help....

[Silent Fly]

As you said, I think you are a little bit confused.

There are a few things that we better clarify.

[b]* Devices[/b]
[b]Preamplifiers[/b] perform two functions: 1. Increase the signal level 2. Change the impedance. They do not allow control of the tone.

[b]Equalizers[/b] change the frequency response of the signal (e.g. increase the bass/treble content).

[b]DI[/b]s (aka Direct Injection boxes) do another thing. They change the impedance and convert an unbalanced signal (e.g. the signal of a bass guitar) to a balanced signal (e.g. a XLR-type signal).

These functions are often combined. Some preamplifiers are built with an equalizer. Some equalizers have some form of gain control and can boost the signal level.

Some devices like the Sadowsky DI can do all the above. They boost the signal, convert it to balanced and change the frequency content (treble/bass controls).

Other devices like the Avalon U5 are DI, preamplifiers and have limited EQ functionalities).

“[i]On-board preamplifiers[/i]” is not the best name to describe what they do. A better name would be “[i]on-board equalizer[/i]”. They allow equalization of the signal, impedance conversion (another way to say “robust signal delivery”) and often boost the signal just a few dB.

[b]* Signal levels[/b]
There are 4 signal levels that a musician should know. In order of strength:

[b]Microphone level[/b]. It is very weak. As a bass player, you need be aware of its existence because sometimes PA and recording desks need a mic-level signal as input.

[b]Instrument level[/b]. It is the signal coming out of your bass.

[b]Line Level[/b]. It is the signal used by: recording devices, the effect loop of your amp, the input of a power amp. To convert microphone and instrument level to line level you need a preamplifier.

[b]Speaker level[/b]. It is the signal sent to speakers. To convert line level to speaker level you need a power amp. To convert instrument level to speaker level you need two devices: preamplifier and power amp. These two devices are often combined in a single unit called “integrated amplifier”.

[b]Effect loop[/b] is an extern access to the output of the preamplifier and the input of the power amp in an integrated amplifer.

----
If you miss the “active high end zing” you need an equalizer to boost the high frequencies.

[M4L666]

Couldn't an EQ pedal with true bypass do the same job?

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='M4L666' post='745618' date='Feb 15 2010, 10:29 AM']Couldn't an EQ pedal with true bypass do the same job?[/quote]

I am not sure if your are asking me or nugget

Yes - This is what I would use.

Something like [url="http://www.sfxsound.co.uk/mainpage.asp?page=micro_eq"]this[/url] for example.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Silent Fly

[dave_bass5]

My suggestion would be to get a Behringer BDI21. Its a Sansamp clone and a very good one IME. cost is under £30 so as its only needed for a few songs i think it can be justified.

IME just turning up the treble knob isnt the same thing at all. I was also looking for a more active type of tone but not distortion from my passive bass and the BDI did the trick.
It can be run as a pre amp but i just use it before the amp input like a regular pedal.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I think the OP is getting confused with a pre-amp as part of an active circuitry and a pre-amp as in a pre and power amp head.

Get a good EQ pedal with a true bypass (as has been suggested) and you'll have more control over your tone than with any other means.

[Happy Jack]

Nice post, Max.

Nugget, in my limited experience the market is now swamped with multi-functional devices, all trying to make themselves look different from the competition by bolting on yet more goodies.

If all you want really is external EQ, then SilentFly's box (or a similar equivalent) is the way to go.

If you suspect that you may have other needs/demands in future, then you should look at the various "Swiss Army penknives" that are out there for bass players.

I currently use both a Radial Tonebone and a Sansamp BDDI Deluxe (don't worry - not at the same time! ) and they are both excellent units. For the prices charged, so they should be.

By way of an example, the Tonebone allows:
[list]1. Two instruments plugged in at once, with different EQ and level for each, OR
2. One instrument plugged in with two completely different EQ settings on a stomp
3. Separate stomp for user-defined Boost to level, which can also initiate
4. FX send/return loop
5. Direct tuner line out with 4x level
6. DI output to PA/board
[/list]

I can't imagine the circumstances under which I'd use ALL of these at the same time but I'd expect to use all these features at some point. This Friday, I will certainly be using (1), (3), (4) and (5) on stage.

[fatback]

I got an outboard sadowky preamp from a nice chap on this forum, and it's been a stunning success with my passive yamaha. It has treble and bass boost as well, so I use that for eq and leave my amp flat apart from taking out the extreme low.

Sounds a bit like you have an amp problem though.

Edited February 17, 2010 by fatback