If you had a budget of £5k, what would you buy

[JPJ]

So we’re thinking of upgrading our PA. Current system is Behringer XR18, dBX DriveRack PA, an old pair of Peavey Pro 15 powered subs, and a pair of EV ZLX15P tops. As we’re all using in-ears now, and with most of us having the gear to go amp-less, we’re thinking of going down that route. The band is a southern rock five-piece (2 x guitar, bass, drums, fiddle) and we play everything from small pubs to largish clubs. I’m looking to get a good solid kick drum and get increased vocal headroom as we, on occasion, run out of headroom.

There is lots of chat on here about how to get a great sound with minimal kit, but if you had a budget of £5k, what would you buy? To give you a steer, I’m old school, so I don’t see us going out without subs, and I’d not rule out going back to passive cabs if it reduced the weight of each individual element as we’re all getting on these days.  

[Dan Dare]

Sound on Sound has reviewed a lot of active PA cabs over the years. If you look up the equipment reviews on their website, there's a lot of useful info.

 

In your position, I'd keep the XR 18. It's a decent unit (especially for the money) and Improving on it significantly is going to eat a fair chunk of your £5k. Unless you need more channels, I'd stick with it. I agree with you that subs are essential if you want a solid kick sound from the PA.

 

The weight saved on passive cabs isn't great, when you factor in carrying power amps and the additional speaker cabling. The average class D module adds a kilo or so of weight to a PA cab, which isn't a lot, so I'd look at active cabs.

 

It's possible to get great sound with compact kit, but you won't do it cheaply (the formula is light, powerful/high quality, cheap - pick two). The best combination of sound and portability I've heard came from a pair of Nexo 10 top boxes plus one of their bandpass subs. It was amazing for its size and super clean and powerful. However, Nexo don't make active cabs so you'd need quality power amps, which would put their stuff well over your budget. The same applies to many of the compact but powerful and high quality rigs from companies such as DB, Fohhn (which I use), etc.

 

RCF have a lot of fans - deservedly - on here for capable, but not crazy expensive PA gear. Ditto Yamaha (which bought out Nexo a few years back, acquired its tech' and incorporated it into their own products). Their DXR PA cabs and DXS subs are very good. QSC, which cost about the same as Yamaha, are also worth a look.

 

A pair of DXR12 or DXR10 top boxes and DXS15 subs would come in at around £3.5k. If you're running subs, it's a waste putting anything larger than 12s on poles above them, when low frequencies are being dealt with by the subs. Quality 10s will be fine in all but the largest venues, which will save a bit of weight and bulk.

 

Spend some of the change from your £5k on some quality mic's. If you're using SM58s or similar, you can do a lot better.

 

It can be difficult to audition/try PA gear, but it's worth doing so if at all possible.

[Phil Starr]

Good advice about re-visiting the mics and I also would keep the XR18 if you are happy with it. 

Actually it's all good advice going active adds almost no weight to the cabs and having amps matched to the speakers they are driving with dynamic protection gives you extra headroom and a foolproof/no worries set up as well as better sound.

 

The good thing about that sort of budget is that you can move to the sort of 'stick' systems that work. One local band use the FBT Vertus VT1000 system. I've seen them do gigs with just one set for a medium sized pub gig and it sounded epic. With a pair you'd have something supremely portable and very competent. Vocals are really well presented and a step up from most bands. https://www.fbtaudio.co.uk/fbt-audio/portable-sound/full-systems/vertus-series/vt1000.htm

 

Another similar alternative would be the RCF NXL24  https://www.thomann.co.uk/rcf_nxl_24_a_mk2.htm another small column/line source speaker which would need subs. I heard these when I bought my RCF 745's which are another great speaker for a band. I have to say that next to each other I was disappointed with the 745's and was almost put off buying them. That was with the RCF 8003 subs which would be above your budget and was way above mine at the time. I've promised myself that if my latest band do start getting better gigs then the NXL 24's will be my next step, paired with RCF 905 subs.

[Dan Dare]

Thanks Phil. I didn't suggest any stick plus sub systems because the OP said he was old school and also because they can get pretty spendy, but you're right. FBT, HK, RCF and others offer excellent options.

 

I'd add that one capable sub will always beat two less able ones. I find I need only one for probably 80% of the gigs I do (I sometimes wonder whether it was worth my buying two when one sits at home for much of the time).

 

The RCF 8003 is very good, although it's a bit of a lump to carry around. The 905 is a little easier on the back. A pair on NXL24s plus a single 905 would be a pretty tasty rig and would come in under the OP's budget.

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

Thanks Phil. I didn't suggest any stick plus sub systems because the OP said he was old school and also because they can get pretty spendy, but you're right. FBT, HK, RCF and others offer excellent options.

 

I'd add that one capable sub will always beat two less able ones. I find I need only one for probably 80% of the gigs I do (I sometimes wonder whether it was worth my buying two when one sits at home for much of the time).

 

The RCF 8003 is very good, although it's a bit of a lump to carry around. The 905 is a little easier on the back. A pair on NXL24s plus a single 905 would be a pretty tasty rig and would come in under the OP's budget.

I'd completely agree about the subs. I've a pair of old Wharfedales which are great but I've never used them together except for outdoor gigs. You just don't need all that bass in most venues and a single sub is enough. I've now replaced the Wharfedales with a single 905 which is pretty light for a capable sub and 10kg lighter than the Wharfedales. 

 

I'm loving this question all my gig money goes into a separate account and is used mainly to buy the gear I need to keep gigging. In the past few years I've not actually 'needed' to buy any gear as its been reliable and sounds good, I'm also happy with the basses I play. I've made no major purchases in the last 5 years apart from the 905 and coincidentally I've accumulated £5,000 in my band account. I'll be very interested in other people's suggestions

 

£5,000 is also a very realistic figure for a regularly gigging semi pro band. Most of us are probably using gear similar to @JPJ but if your band is getting plenty of decent gigs then paying back £5,000 over a year or so is very do-able for a successful band and will allow for a noticeable improvement in sound. The EV's and Peaveys probably owe them nothing but will still recoup some money when they sell them.

[JPJ]

Thanks @Phil Starr and @Dan Dare for your input. I must confess I am not convinced by the stick systems - I’ve only really had experience of the low end ranges and to my ears they do not sound good nor look good (I know, Luddite etc). I’ve been tempted by the RCF NLX24’s before, in my pursuit of a single box solution, but I could certainly see using a pair of these with either one or two 905’s working for us. My plan was indeed to retain the XR18, I’ve had mine almost ten years and I am very comfortable with the UI and workflow, despite being tempted by the x32 rack for no other reason than I am a self-confessed gear slut. As you say, the EV’s and Peavey’s owe me nothing but would still probably return some money to the pot. 

[Dan Dare]

Pleasure. Stick and sub systems can be very good, but as is always the case, the ones that deliver the goods aren't cheap. 

 

The NXL24s go down to 65 hz (on paper, at least), so shouldn't need a lot of low end reinforcement. If you do go for them, I's start with one sub. The RCF 905 is guaranteed to work with them and you can always add another in the future if you need to. However, I'd be surprised if you do. Modern subs are so much better - more efficient, cleaner and louder - than the old boom boxes.

 

You don't need stereo subs. Very low frequencies are omni-directional and a single sub can be placed optimally more easily than two. 

[Phil Starr]

This  ^^

 

The FBT Vertus was only a suggestion based upon "if it reduced the weight of each individual element as we’re all getting on these days". The Subs are 2x8's not light, but small and portable. The sound overall is really impressive and the kick drum was really nicely rendered by them.  The 6x4" columns with four tweeters as well gives you so much more midrange than the 2 or 3" full range speakers you get in the budget sticks. 

 

The other option in your price bracket that would avoid a heavy lift would be a couple of smaller conventional point source tops with subs. You don't need 15's with subs. 10's or even 8's will cope with the frequencies above 100Hz but some of the smaller speakers have limited sensitivity so you'd need to watch that.

 

 

[mrtcat]

Lots of great info already given. All I would add is that its worth considering a Blue Acoustic system. Hand made here in the UK using top quality components. Designed to out perform similarly priced big brand gear and you can speak to them directly to discuss which of their setups would suit you best.

[warwickhunt]

Kev you are welcome to borrow my pair of QSCK10's and a single FBT15" sub to trial at a gig/rehearsal.  I'm not saying that to indicate that is what you should buy but it might give you some further insight into single sub/10" top systems.  Just give me a shout. 

[Chienmortbb]

5 hours ago, mrtcat said:

Lots of great info already given. All I would add is that its worth considering a Blue Acoustic system. Hand made here in the UK using top quality components. Designed to out perform similarly priced big brand gear and you can speak to them directly to discuss which of their setups would suit you best.

I was at an open mic night where a Blue Acoustics systems was used. Without doubt the best sound I have heard from any similar sized PA. Good shout.

[warwickhunt]

Hmmmm... just looked on the BA Systems page and their systems all pretty much seem to be flying the flag for sticking a box on a pole above a sub, one on each side.  Is that not contrary to every bit of guidance that we all read about and agree is NOT the thing to do?  Just saying!  

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

Hmmmm... just looked on the BA Systems page and their systems all pretty much seem to be flying the flag for sticking a box on a pole above a sub, one on each side.  Is that not contrary to every bit of guidance that we all read about and agree is NOT the thing to do?  Just saying!  

The problem is one of phase. When two speakers are separated then the sound from one will reach you later than the sound from the other. If they  are a substantial fraction of a wavelength apart then the sound may be in phase and reinforce each other or out of phase and cancel each other. This leads to power alleys where the bass is louder and other places where it is quieter. It's frequency/wavelength dependant so the distortion caused will vary as you move around. You can hear this quite clearly in outdoor events where there are subs either side of the stage. Indoors the walls reflect the sound and the multiple pathways the sound uses to reach your ears smears this effect.

 

In the end practicality kicks in. Ideally you want your subs on the ground in front of a raised stage but this is rarely possible, and placing the subs together can be tricky. I've played a lot of venues where punters killing themselves by knocking the tops off stands are more of an issue than sound quality. It is a bit of an issue though as you point out when designers of systems seem not to know about sub placement . To be fair to them most of their customers would probably prefer the look of subs either side of the stage as that's what they would do in practice so their ads show what the customer wants.

 

When I looked up BA systems the website has been taken down and sombody called Kevin has retired due to ill health with just a FB page remaining so I'd contact them before going this direction to check if they are still trading.

[JPJ]

Love the idea of supporting a British manufacturer (hell my first proper bass amp was an Ohm GB60 combo back in the day), but no website and just a facebook page leaves me cold. 

The subs placement thing is a real thing. Of all the venues we play, there is only one where I can put the subs side-by-side in the centre in front of the stage and yes they sound measurably better when arranged like this. For the majority of our gigs, space dictates that we go one sub per side with a pole mounted top. I’m serious tempted by a pair of the RCF NLX24’s and single 905 sub as this will comfortably cover all of our gigs, and being a registered gear slut, I’d probably add a second 905 down the line just because I love chest thumping kick drum mixes. 

[Phil Starr]

It's a shame Newcastle is so far away, it's a set up I'd love to get a really good look at.