musicman1 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 hi i am building a true bypass strip for my ACM dissertation that has to be in this year, i just wanted some feedback on who would be interested in a custom built true bypass strip. i am going to be building them myself and have looked at the gig rig which is really expensive and huge. also there is Pedal boards .com which is the same design, but they are in the US with the economy at the moment it is very expensive to buy from there. i would like feed back on the price mainly and would would be interested in purchasing one in the next few months. i am charging £40 per switch so a 6 switch would be £240 here are some pic of the prototype.thanks rob [attachment=21724:IMG_0080.JPG] [attachment=21723:IMG_0078.JPG] [attachment=21725:IMG_0082.JPG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) Seems pricey. Red Onion price their three-loop bypass box at £55. And to be frank your wiring doesn't look all that tidy. Edited March 9, 2009 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='429559' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:17 PM']Seems pricey. Red Onion price their three-loop bypass box at £55. And to be frank your wiring doesn't look all that tidy.[/quote] +1 - exceptionally poor wiring and a completely unrealistic price. The wiring needs to be a hell of a lot better than that. Consider getting thinner cable, platting them and small cable ties. If the thing looks like a work of art inside, people are going to me more inclined to pay higher prices. For that sort of price, I would expect ability to group effects... and probably a nice screen printed finish. (and a sealed box) Having said that, take all this on board for your project as research - sign up to some effects forums and ask people to show (where willing) the type of finishes that they are achieving and the neatness of the wiring. At this stage in time, I am afraid that your venture is not going to make any money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) I agree with the previous posters, you're wiring is a bit scruffy - even for a prototype. As a target to aim for, I don't think they get much better than this ($155 for a six-switch...) [url="http://www.tonefactor.com/proddetail.php?prod=BigfootSixChannelLooper"]Road Rage pedals[/url] Edited March 9, 2009 by Stewart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have to agree, nobody in their right mind would pay £240 for a bypass strip unless it had relay switching, MIDI control, was gold plated, and blessed by Jesus. Check these out: [url="http://www.loop-master.com/"]http://www.loop-master.com/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman1 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 thanks for the advice but thinner wire is ok but is not that great for thickness of tone plus i have already taken orders for 5 of these. just showing 2 people at college. i can tidy up the wiring as this is prototype i didn't worry about this. 155 dollars is cheap but by the time you get it to the uk you are looking at 200 pounds. but it is all things i have to concider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I won’t comment your work or its price. They will be judged by the number of customers and their satisfaction. I would like to give only a few comments about the presentation. I would recommend you write clearly what are the advantages of your solution compared to others especially if you are charging more than the average. Personally, I don’t find the low quality pictures of a damaged pedalboard and a (dirty?) towel particularly appealing but may be it is just me... English is not my first language so probably I am the last person that can say anything about it however... If you are selling something it might be a good idea to do it, at least grammatically, well. I would recommend you write “I” and not “i” and start sentences with an uppercase letter. People may think that if you don’t make the effort in pressing the [shift] key, you will not put the necessary attention to details in building the bypass strip. Please don’t take the above as a personal criticism. It just a friendly advice that I hope will help you sell a lot of units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='musicman1' post='429593' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:57 PM']thanks for the advice but thinner wire is ok but is not that great for thickness of tone plus i have already taken orders for 5 of these. just showing 2 people at college. i can tidy up the wiring as this is prototype i didn't worry about this. 155 dollars is cheap but by the time you get it to the uk you are looking at 200 pounds. but it is all things i have to concider[/quote] Congrats on the sales. £240 is about 3 quarters more than I'd be prepared to pay for that though. I could build one myself for the cost of parts... Quick heads up – If you’re planning on manufacturing these and selling them for profit, have you put your device through the required UK and EU testing? I’m not sure about the legality of selling untested electronic products. I’m pretty sure you’d have to have some form of public liability insurance as a start… Good luck with it though. With £1200 coming in from your 5 orders, you’ve made a really good start, but I’d seriously consider cutting your costs and slashing your mark up in half if you really want to get this thing going. £240 is a crazy price IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='musicman1' post='429593' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:57 PM']thanks for the advice but thinner wire is ok but is not that great for thickness of tone[/quote] I'm sorry but now in addition to your high price and poor wiring skills I'm going to add that I'm not at all confident of your understanding of your subject area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='429691' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:23 PM']I'm sorry but now in addition to your high price and poor wiring skills I'm going to add that I'm not at all confident of your understanding of your subject area.[/quote] I dont want to comment on what looks like to be a lack of shielded cable either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='429628' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:27 PM']Quick heads up – If you’re planning on manufacturing these and selling them for profit, have you put your device through the required UK and EU testing? I’m not sure about the legality of selling untested electronic products. I’m pretty sure you’d have to have some form of public liability insurance as a start…[/quote] I think since its a passive item itself it should be ok, although the leds are powered they are low voltage. Price seems silly, if your markup is reasonable you might want to look into your parts sourcing. [quote]I could build one myself for the cost of parts...[/quote] isn't really a very useful critisism, its true of pretty much anything, a bypass strip isn't especially clever electronics, but it is repetetive and boring to make. Do you really hear a difference from the thickness of the wire? You know that if everyting is 'truly bypassed' the wire in the pickup is part of the circuit and that is pretty thin and very long. Not sure due to the photograph quality, but your finish looks rough. If you have the enclosures ready, you can get them powder coated pretty cheaply in a variety of colours and it is super tough. Google will find you a local place. Even at prototype stage, you should be worrying about everything. No good making a prototype not like how you intend the finished product to be. I have a prototype pedal thats been sent back and forth several times and most times a failing hasn't been the tone, but the dubious build, which means I've not trusted it enough for the real test of gigging it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='musicman1' post='429545' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:05 PM']hi i am building a true bypass strip for my ACM dissertation that has to be in this year, i just wanted some feedback on who would be interested in a custom built true bypass strip. i am going to be building them myself and have looked at the gig rig which is really expensive and huge. also there is Pedal boards .com which is the same design, but they are in the US with the economy at the moment it is very expensive to buy from there. i would like feed back on the price mainly and would would be interested in purchasing one in the next few months. i am charging £40 per switch so a 6 switch would be £240 here are some pic of the prototype.thanks rob [attachment=21724:IMG_0080.JPG] [attachment=21723:IMG_0078.JPG] [attachment=21725:IMG_0082.JPG][/quote] how much is your mark up? by my working out your charging roughly 30 pounds for labour per switch? that sounds a bit excessive for something that takes around 2 hours. That wiring could be alot neater than it is, you talk about using thicker wire for better tone yet you use alot more length of it than you actually need. The amount of distance the signal has to travel is the real culprit for tone loss, if you really going to make pedals that are worth that much i'd look into using really high quality buffers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='429725' date='Mar 9 2009, 07:51 PM']isn't really a very useful critisism, its true of pretty much anything, a bypass strip isn't especially clever electronics, but it is repetetive and boring to make.[/quote] I think it’s quite a constructive criticism as I was just trying to make the point that this design is very simple and the designer doesn’t hold any intellectual property or rights over the fundamental mechanics of the device, so with this in consideration the £240 seems like a crazy price to be placing on the product given that you can buy something almost identical for less than half the price from a company with a good industry reputation. The fact that any amateur electronics enthusiast can make one of these for less than a 5th of the quoted price should affect the mark-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I don't mean to criticise anybody's opinion. In the end a forum is a place where all opinions should be welcomed. There is only one thing I can't understand: does it make any difference how much mark-up musicman1 makes? Do we ask a bookshop or at the till at the supermarket how much mark-up they have? Don’t get me wrong, I understand that someone may feel a little bit offended by the offer of something that he sees far too expensive for what it is. However, musicman1 never claimed something that wasn’t true. Quite frankly I respect his openness in showing the inside of the box without hiding anything of what he offers. Nobody forces us to buying anything. What if he has a 200% mark-up? AFAIK, it is not illegal. And believe me, I have seen worse. Ultimately, it will be the market to judge his prices and the quality of what he sells. There also another thing that confuses me. It is the comparison between the cost of the parts (and consequently how much it would cost to build it as a DIY project) and the price of the finished unit. I don’t think it is a comparison that makes any sense. Nobody works for only the price of the materials. At the risk of sounding repetitive but do we complain with a cleaner because we could clean our property for free if we do it ourselves? Do we say that the bread is too expensive because we could make it ourselves for half of the price? We complain if what we get for what we pay is not good enough but musicman1 showed us in sufficient detail what he sells upfront. I don’t think that a variation of quality between the final product and what we see in the photos is likely to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 [quote name='Silent Fly' post='431060' date='Mar 10 2009, 10:07 PM']I don't mean to criticise anybody's opinion. In the end a forum is a place where all opinions should be welcomed. There is only one thing I can't understand: does it make any difference how much mark-up musicman1 makes? Do we ask a bookshop or at the till at the supermarket how much mark-up they have? Don’t get me wrong, I understand that someone may feel a little bit offended by the offer of something that he sees far too expensive for what it is. However, musicman1 never claimed something that wasn’t true. Quite frankly I respect his openness in showing the inside of the box without hiding anything of what he offers. Nobody forces us to buying anything. What if he has a 200% mark-up? AFAIK, it is not illegal. And believe me, I have seen worse. Ultimately, it will be the market to judge his prices and the quality of what he sells. There also another thing that confuses me. It is the comparison between the cost of the parts (and consequently how much it would cost to build it as a DIY project) and the price of the finished unit. I don’t think it is a comparison that makes any sense. Nobody works for only the price of the materials. At the risk of sounding repetitive but do we complain with a cleaner because we could clean our property for free if we do it ourselves? Do we say that the bread is too expensive because we could make it ourselves for half of the price? We complain if what we get for what we pay is not good enough but musicman1 showed us in sufficient detail what he sells upfront. I don’t think that a variation of quality between the final product and what we see in the photos is likely to happen.[/quote] hes charging 190 pounds in labour for something that would take 2 hours to build, which a bit of an over the top asking price which is what people where saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 OP - give me a shout - I have an idea that may help you along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synaesthesia Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='umph' post='431113' date='Mar 10 2009, 11:10 PM']hes charging 190 pounds in labour for something that would take 2 hours to build, which a bit of an over the top asking price which is what people where saying.[/quote] The price of anything is whatever the market will bear, and what expectations/capacity the seller has in holding/moving the items. MI goods are way overpriced in the UK due to the cost of living, VAT, etc. -but for an item like the one the OP is pandering, it has a select market which is more likely to be informed - (i). about the purpose of such an item, & (ii) how to wire up your floor board to use it. It would seem to me, that for (ii) to happen, it is not a large step to make your own if you have the time, tools and rudimentary skill required to make one. It is also not a leap of imagination to see what the cost of the parts are. But still people pay £30 for a simple footswitch, and people are willing to pay £6 and up for cheese on toast masquerading as pizza, or £2.50 for a small bowl of plain boiled rice in a Thai restaurant, in the UK. see e.g. [url="http://www.dv247.com/invt/41579/"]http://www.dv247.com/invt/41579/[/url] You pays your money, and you also take what you get and run when you can. Quite a lot of money to be had in a country where decent EB strings are >£20 and decent UB strings are >£100. You can get them posted to you from overseas for a lot less but the convenience, the ignorance, the fear of net money/banking etc will probably encourage the OP somewhat; though the effort looks incredibly amateurish in terms of wiring and design. That said, Pete Cornish charges top dollar for some very basic stuff, that looked like it was labelled by part time secretarial staff. But then he is Pete Cornish and he doesn't subscribe to "true bypass". [url="http://www.petecornish.co.uk/"]http://www.petecornish.co.uk/[/url] Edited March 11, 2009 by synaesthesia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote name='Silent Fly' post='431060' date='Mar 10 2009, 10:07 PM']I don't mean to criticise anybody's opinion. In the end a forum is a place where all opinions should be welcomed. There is only one thing I can't understand: does it make any difference how much mark-up musicman1 makes? Do we ask a bookshop or at the till at the supermarket how much mark-up they have? Don’t get me wrong, I understand that someone may feel a little bit offended by the offer of something that he sees far too expensive for what it is. However, musicman1 never claimed something that wasn’t true. Quite frankly I respect his openness in showing the inside of the box without hiding anything of what he offers. Nobody forces us to buying anything. What if he has a 200% mark-up? AFAIK, it is not illegal. And believe me, I have seen worse. Ultimately, it will be the market to judge his prices and the quality of what he sells. There also another thing that confuses me. It is the comparison between the cost of the parts (and consequently how much it would cost to build it as a DIY project) and the price of the finished unit. I don’t think it is a comparison that makes any sense. Nobody works for only the price of the materials. At the risk of sounding repetitive but do we complain with a cleaner because we could clean our property for free if we do it ourselves? Do we say that the bread is too expensive because we could make it ourselves for half of the price? We complain if what we get for what we pay is not good enough but musicman1 showed us in sufficient detail what he sells upfront. I don’t think that a variation of quality between the final product and what we see in the photos is likely to happen.[/quote] You've made some good points there IMO. We've all seen the schematic of a Wooly Mammoth, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote name='nick' post='432665' date='Mar 12 2009, 05:49 PM']You've made some good points there IMO. We've all seen the schematic of a Wooly Mammoth, right? [/quote] With the Wooly Mammoth you're talking about a copyrighted design with a bucket load of intellectual property. What's been designed here isn't new, it's not original, it's not been well executed, it can be very easily replicated (legally) with a spare couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon, and it’s being sold at a ridiculous price when you compare its functionality and design to what else is available on the market at less than half the price… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 You only have to look at ladipo pedals to see how people can make a load of money selling a poorly presented product. It may sound good, but the build quality is very, very questionable. If people will buy it though... well, fair enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='432691' date='Mar 12 2009, 06:04 PM']With the Wooly Mammoth you're talking about a copyrighted design with a bucket load of intellectual property. What's been designed here isn't new, it's not original, it's not been well executed, it can be very easily replicated (legally) with a spare couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon, and it’s being sold at a ridiculous price when you compare its functionality and design to what else is available on the market at less than half the price…[/quote] I tend to see things a little bit less black and white than you so even if I may (or may not) agree with some of your points I am not sure I would put it this way. Last but not least because I don’t want to incur in the risk of offending other people. More specifically, I wasn't referring to any specific pedal or pedal builder and definitely not to any of the ZVex products. The field of copyright, patent and IP is extremely complex and personally I am not so confident about drawing a line between what it is a new-original-design, legally-original, adapted-from-other-design, a plain copy or a mix of the above. This regardless if it the Wooly Mammoth or anything else. I have other things in life that defending musicman1 position but there is one thing that confuses me. It is the assessment of the time required to build the unit (2 hours). The complete built requires at least: - draw a diagram - write the build of material - find the materials on the market - buy the materials - when the materials arrive verify that everything is correct (e.g. the colour of the LEDs) - measure the box and determine where drill the holes - drill the holes - partially screw the hardware to the box - cut the cables the right length and prepare them for soldering - connect - verify the isolation - test - screw the hardware to the box (tight) - organize payment and deal with the customer - buy packaging material - pack the unit - go to the post office (Sunday is closed) I couldn’t do it in two hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 A lot of what you’ve said is irrelevant. I don’t get paid to travel to and from work, postage and packaging is paid for by the customer, this isn’t a one off production, etc... If you’re talking about a one off bespoke piece of equipment then you’re totally right; it will take longer starting from scratch with something like this as you will have to design it which might take an hour. After you’ve sourced and collected your materials (which might take 20mins in Maplins) it shouldn’t take longer than 2 and a half hours to completely build the thing if you’ve got the right tools and have a basic understanding of how to use them. This isn’t a complicated project and it sounds to me that the “£40 a switch” figure was plucked out of the air with no real thought other than that it would be nice to earn £40 a switch. I didn’t really mean to get into a discussion like this about pricing and I think musicman1 has made a great DIY looper, but to ask for orders with a quoted price of £240 based on what he’s shown us is ridiculous. Judging from your first post you actually agree with me… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='432691' date='Mar 12 2009, 06:04 PM']With the Wooly Mammoth you're talking about a copyrighted design with a bucket load of intellectual property. What's been designed here isn't new, it's not original, it's not been well executed, it can be very easily replicated (legally) with a spare couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon, and it’s being sold at a ridiculous price when you compare its functionality and design to what else is available on the market at less than half the price…[/quote] i don't think you can copyright a fuzzface schematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='432927' date='Mar 12 2009, 09:41 PM']A lot of what you’ve said is irrelevant. I don’t get paid to travel to and from work, postage and packaging is paid for by the customer, this isn’t a one off production, etc... If you’re talking about a one off bespoke piece of equipment then you’re totally right; it will take longer starting from scratch with something like this as you will have to design it which might take an hour. After you’ve sourced and collected your materials (which might take 20mins in Maplins) it shouldn’t take longer than 2 and a half hours to completely build the thing if you’ve got the right tools and have a basic understanding of how to use them. This isn’t a complicated project and it sounds to me that the “£40 a switch” figure was plucked out of the air with no real thought other than that it would be nice to earn £40 a switch.[/quote] I respect your viewpoint and I envy you lack of doubts but I believe we have different opinions about how to calculate time and production costs. What I say it’s not a judgment on musicman1 prices. As I said: <quote>[work and price] will be judged by the number of customers and their satisfaction.</quote> As far as I am concern, if we operate in a free marker, no price is, by definition, wrong or too high/low. [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='432927' date='Mar 12 2009, 09:41 PM'][...] but to ask for orders with a quoted price of £240 based on what he’s shown us is ridiculous. Judging from your first post you actually agree with me…[/quote] With the greatest respect benwhiteuk I think you misread my post. I believe I said the exact opposite: <quote>I won’t comment your work or its price. I would like to give only a few comments about the presentation.</quote> Edited March 13, 2009 by Silent Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Fly Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='umph' post='433013' date='Mar 12 2009, 11:13 PM']i don't think you can copyright a fuzzface schematic.[/quote] I am not an expert on copyright but I think that the copyright of a schematics or a design is legally impossible (by design I am referring to a technical design not to a graphic or architectural design). It is possible copyright [i]the drawing[/i] of a schematics. It is also possible patent an idea or a design. ...I think - not 100% sure though. Edited March 13, 2009 by Silent Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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