High Action sounds so much better

[Stub Mandrel]

1 minute ago, CamdenRob said:

I’ve never managed to get a really low action on any of my basses. I can’t seem to get it below a certain level without getting loads of horrible fret clank in my sound... I’m certainly not a string tickler, but I’ve not got an excessively heavy handed technique either 🤔 

Maybe I just need someone to show me how to do it properly... I never get buzz when I set it really low. I just get the sound of the strings hitting the fret. The envelope of every note starts with a metallic tap which sounds awful. I have to have the action set high enough to eliminate that. Do people really manage to get a super low action without that? Or does everyone else just play ridiculously gently or not mind the fret clank?

Reading everyone else’s posts, I reckon if most of you guys tried my basses you’d find them unplayable 😕

Do you play very near the bridge?

[FDC484950]

11 minutes ago, CamdenRob said:

I’ve never managed to get a really low action on any of my basses. I can’t seem to get it below a certain level without getting loads of horrible fret clank in my sound... I’m certainly not a string tickler, but I’ve not got an excessively heavy handed technique either 🤔 

Maybe I just need someone to show me how to do it properly... I never get buzz when I set it really low. I just get the sound of the strings hitting the fret. The envelope of every note starts with a metallic tap which sounds awful. I have to have the action set high enough to eliminate that. Do people really manage to get a super low action without that? Or does everyone else just play ridiculously gently or not mind the fret clank?

Reading everyone else’s posts, I reckon if most of you guys tried my basses you’d find them unplayable 😕

Have you ever had a bass Plek’ed? I had a Warwick whose neck had significant relief in the first three frets, which meant that I couldn’t get an action below 3mm at the top C/4mm low B. In the end Charlie Chandler had to remove the first 3 frets and shave about 2mm off the fingerboard in that area before Plek’ing - end result was a bass with 1mm action on the C string and 1.5mm on the B with no clank. Basically are the frets level, and if so, does the neck have any bumps, twists etc? If so. I amount of truss rod/action tweaking will get a low, stable playing action.

[Stub Mandrel]

11 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Plek’ing

?

[Reggaebass]

16 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Have you ever had a bass Plek’ed?

Sandberg use this machine, my custom will go to 1mm 12th with no clank 

[Reggaebass]

15 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

?

Here’s a brief video 🙂

 

[Stub Mandrel]

Hmm, I know enough about precision machining to be sceptical that it's superior to doing the job by hand. I don't question that a machine can do an excellent job, but it's accepted that in principal hand scaping can provide a superior flat surface to grinding so I'd expect that to apply to fret dressing as well. Not least because a manual dress can address any residual high spot without having to repeat the entire process (or even remove the strings).

Edited January 30, 2020 by Stub Mandrel
removed double negative!

[CamdenRob]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Do you play very near the bridge?

I vary it to be honest depending on what kind of tone I’m after. But yes predominantly I’d say I do  

2 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

Have you ever had a bass Plek’ed? I had a Warwick whose neck had significant relief in the first three frets, which meant that I couldn’t get an action below 3mm at the top C/4mm low B. In the end Charlie Chandler had to remove the first 3 frets and shave about 2mm off the fingerboard in that area before Plek’ing - end result was a bass with 1mm action on the C string and 1.5mm on the B with no clank. Basically are the frets level, and if so, does the neck have any bumps, twists etc? If so. I amount of truss rod/action tweaking will get a low, stable playing action.

I haven’t had a bass plek’ed, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with the instruments themselves given I’ve never been able to have a very low action on any bass I’ve had... It’s not an issue to be honest, I don’t find my basses difficult to play, far from it in fact, I just don’t understand how everyone else seems to be able to play cleanly with the open strings almost touching the frets... or maybe - as I mentioned earlier - others just don’t care about that metallic tap at the start of every note.

... it’s got to be a technique thing I guess. Maybe I’m striking more down on the strings that others strike across or something 🤔 

[FDC484950]

13 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Hmm, I know enough about precision machining to be sceptical that it's superior to doing the job by hand. I don't question that a machine can do an excellent job, but it's accepted that in principal hand scaping can provide a superior flat surface to grinding so I'd expect that to apply to fret dressing as well. Not least because a manual dress can address any residual high spot without having to repeat the entire process (or even remove the strings).

It’s an expensive machine designed for a specific purpose. The important point is the very small calculations it makes both under tension and with no tension. A person doing the job by hand is relying on sight and feel. Now a very experienced luthier/repair person may have this down to a fine art but they’re still to an extent guessing. The fret is also not shaped flat but domed to provide more consistent intonation. On what do you base “hand scaping” being superior?
The only reason it’s use is not more widespread is that due to expense. I’ve had many instruments serviced over the years and the two basses I’ve had Plek’ed were/are the best playing with the lowest action. 
It’s also worth mentioning that having it Plek’ed does not mean the entire process is computerised - the fret ends are dressed by hand and polishing/final checks are done both in the machine and visually. 

[Stub Mandrel]

21 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

On what do you base “hand scaping” being superior?

In engineering, hand scraping is the most accurate process for producing flat surfaces over long distances, by comparing three surfaces and taking off the high spots.

https://www.okuma.com/hand-scraping-wp

There isn't an accurate grinding machine in existence that doesn't trace it's accuracy back to hand-scraped surface plates 🙂

When optical telescope mirrors need to be made to the highest levels of accuracy (fractions of a wavelength of light) they abandon the machines and finish them by hand.

Even the production of gauge blocks (small but very accurate & expensive) was finished by manual lapping until the 1960s.

For a fret dress, that machine will work to a known level of accuracy, as it's fairly lightly built 0.02 or maybe 0.01mm is probably about it <it's 0.01mm according to the patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6114618.pdf>.

Expert hand scraping can work to around 0.000025mm...

An expert hand finishing frets could easily work to better than that to a factor of ten (although it's questionable if that would give any improvement). The value of the Plek machine (operated by a semi-skilled person) can do the job to  a higher standard than the majority of music shop techs, but i very much doubt it can beat a skilled luthier.

 

[FDC484950]

47 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

In engineering, hand scraping is the most accurate process for producing flat surfaces over long distances, by comparing three surfaces and taking off the high spots.

https://www.okuma.com/hand-scraping-wp

There isn't an accurate grinding machine in existence that doesn't trace it's accuracy back to hand-scraped surface plates 🙂

When optical telescope mirrors need to be made to the highest levels of accuracy (fractions of a wavelength of light) they abandon the machines and finish them by hand.

Even the production of gauge blocks (small but very accurate & expensive) was finished by manual lapping until the 1960s.

For a fret dress, that machine will work to a known level of accuracy, as it's fairly lightly built 0.02 or maybe 0.01mm is probably about it <it's 0.01mm according to the patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6114618.pdf>.

Expert hand scraping can work to around 0.000025mm...

An expert hand finishing frets could easily work to better than that to a factor of ten (although it's questionable if that would give any improvement). The value of the Plek machine (operated by a semi-skilled person) can do the job to  a higher standard than the majority of music shop techs, but i very much doubt it can beat a skilled luthier.

 

Yes but that has very little to do with frets on a bass. We are not talking about tolerances of 0.000025mm, but to a usable level on a consistent basis every time. We are also not talking about flat surfaces per se but curved ones (yes I know they will be flat at a microscopic level) - and at a tolerance of 0.01mm it is more than sufficient to satisfy the requirement to get the best possible action. 
What if the “skilled luthier” has an off day? I’ve had work done by respected luthiers that has needed rework because it wasn’t done properly. 

[Stub Mandrel]

7 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Yes but that has very little to do with frets on a bass. We are not talking about tolerances of 0.000025mm, but to a usable level on a consistent basis every time. We are also not talking about flat surfaces per se but curved ones (yes I know they will be flat at a microscopic level) - and at a tolerance of 0.01mm it is more than sufficient to satisfy the requirement to get the best possible action. 
What if the “skilled luthier” has an off day? I’ve had work done by respected luthiers that has needed rework because it wasn’t done properly. 

The figure were just to demonstrate it's possible to work to greater accuracy by hand.

Despite what people think, you or I could work to the 'thousandth of an inch' mentioned in awe on other forums, I regularly do so.