Cryptic mix test! Which do you prefer?

[paul h]

I'll take that

[paul h]

This is something I'm really interested in but I need to ask a very stupid question

To route the signal from the DAW/computer to a mixer/console, do you need an interface with loads of outputs? One per track? Or is there a clever or obvious solution that I'm missing?

I'm starting to do a little more OTB with regard to guitar parts...using an amp sim and other pedals as opposed to plugins. I find the more analogue technology I use in my signal path the happier I am with the results.

[ras52]

I'll just throw this into the, ahem, mix:

[b] Mix In The Box Or Take An SSL E Series For Free?[/b]


http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2016/5/10/the-big-board-dilemma

[Skol303]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1462954882' post='3047154']To route the signal from the DAW/computer to a mixer/console, do you need an interface with loads of outputs? One per track? Or is there a clever or obvious solution that I'm missing?[/quote]

Good question!

The mixer that I used for this test is an Allen & Heath [url="http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/zed-r16/"]ZED-R16[/url]. It’s an analogue desk that connects to a computer/DAW using a standard Firewire cable. Super easy; quite literally ‘plug and play’.

It’s an amazing bit of kit at around £1600 brand new, although it can be picked up second-hand for £600 or so if you're patient (I’ve been eyeing recent eBay sales).

Otherwise, I think the traditional route is to use an analogue-to-digital converter (A/D) and I assume some kind of summing box. Probably more costly once you add everything up, but it would give you access to pretty much any analogue desk, of which there are [i]many[/i] on the second-hand market.

All I can say at this stage is that appears to be a gloriously slippery slope into a whole new realm of GAS

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1462957387' post='3047183']
I'll just throw this into the, ahem, mix:

[b] Mix In The Box Or Take An SSL E Series For Free?[/b]


[url="http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2016/5/10/the-big-board-dilemma"]http://www.pro-tools...g-board-dilemma[/url]
[/quote]

Nice offer! But I'd pass on that... the running costs would likely require a second mortgage

[paul h]

Mmm. It seems to me that as you're not doing actually any mixing on the console, similar results could be had by simply running the final stereo mix through a nice analogue preamp. And of course if you also run it through an eq and a compressor, you're basically mastering the track.

I've got a cheap Behringer tube preamp I use when recording acoustic guitar, I could try and run a finished mix through that and see if it helps "de-digitalize" it!

[Skol303]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1462979008' post='3047510']
Mmm. It seems to me that as you're not doing actually any mixing on the console, similar results could be had by simply running the final stereo mix through a nice analogue preamp. And of course if you also run it through an eq and a compressor, you're basically mastering the track.

I've got a cheap Behringer tube preamp I use when recording acoustic guitar, I could try and run a finished mix through that and see if it helps "de-digitalize" it!
[/quote]

Nice idea! I'd be interested to hear that.

I suppose the difference is in the summing... you'd get plenty of analogue 'flavour' by running a stereo mix through an analogue preamp, but this wouldn't strictly be 'analogue summing' in the conventional sense (of adding multiple tracks together to create a final stereo mix).

But whatever. If it sounds good, it [i]is[/i] good

[paul h]

I absolutely want a Zed-R16 now...thanks

[Skol303]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1462992395' post='3047701']
I absolutely want a Zed-R16 now...thanks
[/quote]

Yeah sorry about that!

...the channel EQs are amazing too.

I'll shut up now.

[paul h]

My buddy has an Allen and Heath mixer so we are going to repeat your experiment next week.

I have full stems for three songs and we are going to have a bit of a mixing session

[Skol303]

^ Excellent! Have fun and be sure to report back here with your findings.

[zero9]

I preferred the first one (although it could be down to my cans). Marginally more clarity in the midrange - perhaps because it has gone through less 'processing' to get to the final result.

[Mornats]

Bit late to the party here but I've had a listen to them both and I voted for number 2 as by far and away the clear winner.

I'm listening through my PC using an Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard (blooming awesome quality) into my 25 year old Rotel RA-930AX amp then into my 25+ year old custom wired and sealed Tannoy E11s. I've had that amp and speakers for 25 years so I'm very used to the sounds that come out of it. I also use it as my second set of mixing speakers as it's more hi-fi than my monitors but still separates the sound out and is crystal clear with the right source.

So, I picked 2 as the instruments simply sat in their own space whilst still being glued into the one track. The bass was clear in T2 whereas in T1 there was a lot more mix glue that took away the definition in the lower frequency ranges. I was struggling to pick out the instruments from each other in T1 but T2 had them all displayed nicely to me.

I wonder... I have an old Tascam Portastudio 424 that my uncle gave me a few years ago. It's only been used once in the 90s and is in pristine nick. Would I get the same effect if I sent some tracks into this and bounced it down onto tape before bringing it back into my DAW? Would I get some tape compression on it too?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Mornats

[Skol303]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1463424803' post='3051285']Bit late to the party here but I've had a listen to them both and I voted for number 2 as by far and away the clear winner.[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback Paul! Especially given that you've checked both mixes on a good system that you're familiar with.

What you describe is the classic "analogue mojo" that often gets quoted... instruments "[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]sat in their own space whilst still being glued into the one track." I'm perhaps overly familiar with the mix to hear a discernible difference, so it's good to get such input from other pairs of ears [/color][/font]

I think you should definitely try out that old Tascam Portastudio and let us know the results. Bear in mind that the quality of tape machines can vary hugely, at least from what I've read. Some can add a lot of unwanted noise, but if you have a good one the results can be very sweet indeed.

[Mornats]

It's interesting how others, including yourself, can't hear the difference as clearly as I did!

I'll see if I can get any good quality tapes for my Tascam, or maybe I can just take a line out to my Focusrite Forte perhaps... I'll report back once I've had a go.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1463771266' post='3054016']
It's interesting how others, including yourself, can't hear the difference as clearly as I did!...
[/quote]

No mystery at all, as far as I am concerned..! I'm so hard of hearing, my audio system is in Braille..!

...

Edited May 20, 2016 by Dad3353

[Skol303]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1463771266' post='3054016']
It's interesting how others, including yourself, can't hear the difference as clearly as I did!
[/quote]

99% down to the listening environment

I put the tracks online in haste and only checked them on earbuds myself... which is usually my 'acid test' of any mix.

I need to give them a proper blast through my monitors.

Sounds like you have a good set up though. It really does make all the difference when it comes to critical listening.

Let us know how you get on with that take machine...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1463778102' post='3054086']...
Let us know how you get on with that [s]take[/s] sake machine...
[/quote]

Fixed. He's going to brew up some rice tea and run a karaoke session.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Dad3353

[Mornats]

I wonder if something like this http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_sound/mixers/analog-mixers/mg_xu_model/mg10xu/?mode=model - one of Yamaha's fairly cheap mixing desks would do the same thing as the Z-R16, although not as good quality I'd imagine. £150 for one of those.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1463947512' post='3055270']
I wonder if something like this [url="http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_sound/mixers/analog-mixers/mg_xu_model/mg10xu/?mode=model"]http://usa.yamaha.co...0xu/?mode=model[/url] - one of Yamaha's fairly cheap mixing desks would do the same thing as the Z-R16, although not as good quality I'd imagine. £150 for one of those.
[/quote]

I don't see why not... it's the same principle: analogue summing. Looks like a good little mixer for the money, too.

[Mornats]

Cool actually for the same price there's a 10 channel Allen and Heath Zed10 (not a Z-R though which I guess makes a difference). http://www.thomann.de/gb/allenheath_zed10.htm. Worth looking into!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1464028800' post='3055938']
Cool actually for the same price there's a 10 channel Allen and Heath Zed10 (not a Z-R though which I guess makes a difference). [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/allenheath_zed10.htm."]http://www.thomann.d...eath_zed10.htm.[/url] Worth looking into!
[/quote]

Working link...

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/allenheath_zed10.htm"]Allen & Heath Zed-10 ...[/url]

[Mornats]

Ta! I put a full stop at the end of mine which broke it. Damn my grammar!

[Dad3353]

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485]

[Zombie1965]

Almost identical, but I prefer mix T2, Slightly warmer but with less clarity in the bass and a more open sounding vocal. They sure are close though.

[Zombie1965]

wow just looked back through the thread..... Looks like I prefer analogue summing then, Cheers for this little test.