JamesBass Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 As many know this highly desired "tone wood" is restricted by the terms of CITES, but when did Fender stop using it? And how can you, if you really want to, get hold of it in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodaxe Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 [quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1422136728' post='2669213'] As many know this highly desired "tone wood" is restricted by the terms of CITES, but when did Fender stop using it? And how can you, if you really want to, get hold of it in the UK? [/quote] As you say, CITES will restrict trade, so you're unlikely to find it at any timber supplier - unless you know any boatbuilders with an ancient woodpile somewhere. However... if the antiques shows on the telly are to be believed, 'brown' furniture is a pretty depressed market at the moment, so scouring house clearance shops, architectural salvage yards & auctions ought to turn up the goods as the odds are that any Victorian/Edwardian mahogany furniture will be either Brazilian or even Honduras. I scored some lovely (if thin) mahog from a mate who was moving house & had an Edwardian fireplace surround he couldn't use at the new place. But... you still need to be careful. As I understand it, CITES forbids the re-working of otherwise exempt materials. For e.g. it's quite legal to buy & sell a Georgian Ivory billiard ball as it was manufactured pre-1947, but if you were to take that ball & carve it into, say, a pendant, you'd be stuffed if you wanted to sell it as CITES would regard it as 'new' Ivory. Daft I call it, but there you go. Not sure what the ruling is if you had a rough-sawn baulk of pre-war timber though. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It isn't illegal (yet) to own something on the CITES lists, but it is illegal to move any items on the top 2 lists between the 187 signed up countries, no matter how old those items are. CITES is supposed to prevent the items being moved from one country to another, thus killing off international trade in endangered species and prevent those species being hunted, exported and becoming extinct. There are nearly 40,000 items on the 3 lists. There are places where CITES don't mean a thing and others where it does. The US customs seem to be particularly keen to seize anything that looks like it might be on the list. I believe some older Gibson guitars were impounded when being sent to Canada. You don't get them back. The UK and Europe have signed up and, I assume, will be a risk to importers of restricted items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If you can demonstrate a chain of custody (or ownership), since CITES was introduced, then its ok. You may need a permit to 'move' an instrument, depending where you're coming from, or going to. The key is to check, get some history on your instrument, and if there is no intended intent to modify the endangered component, it should be ok, here's some more;[/font][/size] [color=#666666] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The CITES secretariat in Geneva were contacted for practical advice from musicians, and a fellow who preferred to be identified only as “spokesperson said. "Travelers,” he told me, “should be most concerned when traveling in or out of the U.S., E.U., Australia or Japan because those countries have the strictest enforcement efforts.” “And,” he added, “ You’ve got to pay very close attention to the legal requirements”[/font][/size][/color] [color=#666666] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The rule: To move one of the listed species across the border of one of the 172 signatories, you’ll need an export permit, which will be granted only if “a Scientific Authority of the State of export has advised that such export will not be detrimental to the survival of that species” (This has been accepted in the case of instruments of a vintage nature), and the item “was not obtained in contravention of the laws of that State for the protection of fauna and flora.”, since those laws existed. In addition, you’ll need an import permit from the destination country, obtainable upon proof that importation isn’t for “primarily commercial purposes.”[/font][/size][/color] [color=#666666] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So, get your papers, say its for personal use, and it should be ok, although it may be a concern for some.[/font][/size][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1422193823' post='2669654'] ....[color=#666666][size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So, get your papers, say its for personal use, and it should be ok.... although it may be a concern for some.....[/font][/size][/color] [/quote] If only it were that simple. A quote from the following article: [i]First, your item is exempt if you acquired it before CITES listed it. Second, CITES will exempt “specimens that are personal or household effects,” so long as you didn’t acquire the items outside of your home country. This exception, however, does not apply to Appendix I species, which, as we’ll see, loom large in the world of vintage guitars.[/i] Brazilian rosewood is in Appendix 1 [url="http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/guitar-lover%E2%80%99s-guide-cites-conservation-treaty"]http://www.fretboard...ervation-treaty[/url] Edited January 25, 2015 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I've heard dozens of different 'official' quotes. To be honest, unless you are personally importing or exporting, or even shipping items that contain these materials, then you have nothing to worry about. I always use a third party, and it will be their job to sort the papers. If no-one gets any permissions, then no more instruments containing those materials will enter or leave these shores, which would be a great shame. I'm yet to hear of any case of anyone having an issue, although i suspect its only a matter of time.......can of worms time methinks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Learnt loads there! Cheers fellas! But the other question I asked was when did Fender stop using Braz RW? Edited January 25, 2015 by JamesBass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiliwailer Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Haha, I've seen it used used up until 1966, the change might have come around late 64-65??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 [quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1422203280' post='2669800'] Haha, I've seen it used used up until 1966, the change might have come around late 64-65??? [/quote] Cheers, good to know Incase a vintage specimen comes across my path when I'm abroad, or on the net and GAS takes over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiliwailer Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1422209126' post='2669876'] Cheers, good to know Incase a vintage specimen comes across my path when I'm abroad, or on the net and GAS takes over! [/quote] I know there is a first time for everything and all that, but I have never myself heard of a guitar being seized for having Brazilian Rosewood, and that after years of working in MI. But I'm certainly not stating that this could never happen, I just never got wind of it and am quite alarmed by the comments above, they obviously come from good sources. As well as old Fenders, many old acoustics such as Martin are B/R and come back and forth from the States on a regular basis. Those customs guys would have to get seriously clued up, or tipped off, to know which guitars to look for. I have an old Martin which is B/R, there is a damn good reason why it is held in high esteem. I'm sure other rosewoods do just as good a job too, but I never heard a bad B/R guitar in my time and I know guys that absolutely swear by them. I'd be truly gutted for anyone who lost out. Edited January 25, 2015 by Chiliwailer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Of suppliers we deal with I've spoken to two fairly recently about importing brazilian rosewood from the USA to the UK. Both said it was potentially possible but paperwork trail was very important and the more details about provenance the better. One basically said it was too complicated since about 2012 and that they had experienced instruments being seized and inspected (although they were cleared ok). Based on this they wouldn't export to the UK unless it was a really exceptional circumstance. The other said they would be happy to export. However these woods were likely to be expensive and would almost certainly stay in the US. Certainly there was nothing readily available for 2015. We also heard that there was a knock-on effect for high grades of Honduran rosewood (sometimes offered as an alternative to Brazilian) and that prices had risen and supply was limited now. These regulations can also effect Abalone. Some suppliers have to get export certificates for instruments with abalone inlays. So long as the paperwork is all in order it's much easier to obtain export licences but without these then they are liable to seizure. There's a nasty little clause in th seizure regs as well that say there's potentially no recompense and good will not be returned to the supplier if found to be contravening regulations. Edit - I've also been asked to verify that there wasn't any Brazilian rosewood or mahogany on a bass that I shipped privately to the US. This was just from my local FedEx depot. I'd specified 'guitar' as the package contents and when the guy came to collect he asked what woods it was made of and had a short list of woods that couldn't be exported. I had to sign to say that there weren't any. He didn't ask to inspect at all but said there was a possibility of US customs opening the package to check. I'd say this was about 18 months to 2 years ago. Edited January 25, 2015 by molan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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