jakenewmanbass Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) And another thing!! originality is totally over-rated and rarely exists. Aural tradition music (the vast majority of all the music in the history of man) relies entirely on music being passed on by ear and then re-produced, what makes it different are the individual attributes of the performer. Edited June 3, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='211780' date='Jun 3 2008, 01:39 PM']I'm probably a bit simple. Or something. [/quote] you and me both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='211782' date='Jun 3 2008, 01:40 PM']And another thing!! originality is totally over-rated and rarely exists. Aural tradition music (the vast majority of all the music in the history of man) relies entirely on music being re-produced, what makes it different are the individual attributes of the performer.[/quote] Absolutely!! "Original" has to be [b]THE[/b] most overused and inappropriate word in this context. As an aside, Tom Barney who, until fairly recently, had been Steely Dan's touring and recording bassist for many years, had a "day job" playing in the pit orchestra for "The Lion King" on Broadway. Did that diminish his "musical integrity"? I think not!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) jakesbass, Happy Jack and bassicinstinct, you all put it far more eloquently than I could. Agreed EDIT: and P-T-P and Tinman! Edited June 3, 2008 by Merton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='Galilee' post='211767' date='Jun 3 2008, 01:26 PM']* retch * This never happened when I was fronting a thrash band.[/quote] LOL Maybe not in a loved up sense, but how about in a collective "venting of the spleen" sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='211789' date='Jun 3 2008, 01:46 PM']Absolutely!! "Original" has to be [b]THE[/b] most overused and inappropriate word in this context. As an aside, Tom Barney who, until fairly recently, had been Steely Dan's touring and recording bassist for many years, had a "day job" playing in the pit orchestra for "The Lion King" on Broadway. Did that diminish his "musical integrity"? I think not!![/quote] My point exactly! To my mind, if you work hard at playing your chosen music to the best of your abilities, then you have integrity. I do find it insulting to have so called 'original' musicians sneering at those who choose to play purely covers. Where's the integrity there? Are we not all musicians at the end of the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='209602' date='May 30 2008, 02:01 PM']Classic Pino line though. A chance to use an Octaver in anger is never to be sneezed at!![/quote] Damn damn damn damn! I've spent so many decades hating Lady in Red and I've just listened to the bass line properly and, as OHM says, it's a Pino cracker. Thanks OHM ... Now where do I get a version without the vocal or the vision of CDB's sincere eyebrows each time I hear it? Edited June 3, 2008 by OldGit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='211782' date='Jun 3 2008, 01:40 PM']And another thing!! originality is totally over-rated and rarely exists. Aural tradition music (the vast majority of all the music in the history of man) relies entirely on music being passed on by ear and then re-produced, what makes it different are the individual attributes of the performer.[/quote] Indeed! The development of recording technology in the 19th century is almost certainly responsible for this huge shift in music. And with rock and roll (and its numerous offshoots) having had a formula laid in the '50s and developed predominantly through the '60s and '70s there aren't many truly fresh places left to explore nowadays. Despite that I seem to have an obsession with writing and playing 'new' music, though mainly because I enjoy the compositional process than the bass playing situation. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Would anyone tell an actor that because they're performing in a production of a play that has been performed in 1000s of other prior productions that what they are doing lacks integrity simply because of that fact? As to the bubble-gum nature of some music versus the perceived more worthy nature of other forms... championing the latter, at best, is nothing more than differing opinion, however at worst it's pretentiousness of the highest order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Excellently put! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Charlie Parker played covers ..... Yehudi Menuhin played covers John Lennon played covers Frank Zappa played covers Nothing wrong with playing covers. Back to the OP Yes, learn those covers, at least to "get away with it" level. It will broaden yorupalette and, maybe, put a few quid in your pocket some day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Integrity is, by its own nature, subjective so I make no apology for having my own perspective on it. I have played with many musicians who are genuinely able to enjoy playing anything equally, whatever the genre, location and band. I don't, not really. It's what I call a shallow victory. I CAN get a basic (bassic) degree of satisfaction out of knocking out a Tower of Power line, or a James Jamerson line or whatever, but its 10% of the satisfaction I get from doing something creative (original in the sense that it came from within me as a consequence of decades of influences, conscious or unconscious, and the muse of the moment as opposed to learning someone elses dots by rote - I do not mean original as in 'never been played before by anyone else in the universe ever' - how can I know that?). Bottom line is, speaking frankly, why have a covers band at all, why not book a disco and play the records? That's what most people do now, isn't it? As for quoting 'Pretty Woman' lyrics, BBC - boy meets girl he fancies and she fancies him right back? - WOW!! Now THAT's original!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='211819' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:23 PM']Bottom line is, speaking frankly, why have a covers band at all, why not book a disco and play the records? That's what most people do now, isn't it?[/quote] I don't mean to flame but that is the most idiotic thing I have ever seen on a musician's forum written by a muso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='chardbass' post='211823' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:36 PM']I don't mean to flame but that is the most idiotic thing I have ever seen on a musician's forum written by a muso.[/quote] I decided to have DJ rather than a band for my wedding because I was sick of too many covers bands making a complete hash of so many classic grooves. We did have a New Orleans style jazz quartet and a Ceilidh dance band so there was some live music but for the 'disco' end of the night we relied on the original recordings. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 People want entertainment.... which you don't really get with a disco/DJ scenario..... though you don't get that with a lot of Function bands either... hehe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bilbo230763' post='211819' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:23 PM']Integrity is, by its own nature, subjective so I make no apology for having my own perspective on it.[/quote] And I wouldn't chide anyone for holding to that line. However you mix-up your pronouns quite a lot when expressing that opinion... [quote][b]I [/b]find that too much of this bubble-gum stuff takes the edge of [b]your [/b]'proper' art.[/quote] [quote][b]I [/b]find that, if [b]you [/b]do too many 'lightweight' gigs, when [b]you [/b]go back to the more cerebral music, [b]you [/b]feel stale, sluggish even, and it takes a while to get into 'the zone' again. [b]Your [/b]brain just slows down.[/quote] ...which subjectively hints that you consider your opinion to be a little more than simply a personal perspective and more an absolute truth applicable to all. Hopefully that's not the case, or if it is, you'll need to practise harder at avoiding those kind of slip-ups before your plan for world domination will be a success! [quote]I CAN get a basic (bassic) degree of satisfaction out of knocking out a Tower of Power line, or a James Jamerson line or whatever, but its 10% of the satisfaction I get from doing something creative (original in the sense that it came from within me as a consequence of decades of influences, conscious or unconscious, and the muse of the moment as opposed to learning someone elses dots by rote - I do not mean original as in 'never been played before by anyone else in the universe ever' - how can I know that?).[/quote] Which is fair enough but... [quote]As for quoting 'Pretty Woman' lyrics, BBC - boy meets girl he fancies and she fancies him right back? - WOW!! Now THAT's original!! [/quote] You're talking about your "creative" playing as being original in the sense that it came from within you, of the moment, derived from influences etc. but then criticise a perfectly good lyric. The subject matter may be as old as the hills, but the fact is, no one had ever expressed the boy meets girl story in the way that lyric does. The writer, in the moment, from within, etc. Ring any bells? You're unjustifiably attaching more importance to what you're doing, even if you're not making a direct link from one to the other. That's where opinion slips into pretension. Edited June 3, 2008 by P-T-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='211832' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:55 PM']...which subjectively hints that you consider your opinion to be a little more than simply a personal perspective and more an absolute truth applicable to all. Hopefully that's not the case, or if it is, you'll need to practise harder at avoiding those kind of slip-ups before your plan for world domination will be a success! [/quote] A subjective opinion includes a demand for universal assent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='crez5150' post='211831' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:54 PM']People want entertainment.... which you don't really get with a disco/DJ scenario..... though you don't get that with a lot of Function bands either... hehe![/quote] There is nothing worse (for me at least!) than a function band that starts playing one of your favourite songs and then you realise neither you, nor anyone with any degree of musicality, can dance to it because they have completely screwed up the groove. It certainly makes you realise that it's not just the auditionees for the X-Factor that are deluded about their musical abilities... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I'd be making sure that I was booking the right band and not some pony covers band that earns £250 down the local boozer! I think that's where a lot of people go wrong.... too many pony bands out there.... too many people thinking that they will get a pro outfit for less than a grand..... It drives me nuts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='211832' date='Jun 3 2008, 02:55 PM']...which subjectively hints that you consider your opinion to be a little more than simply a personal perspective and more an absolute truth applicable to all. Hopefully that's not the case, or if it is, you'll need to practise harder at avoiding those kind of slip-ups before your plan for world domination will be a success! You're talking about your "creative" playing as being original in the sense that it came from within you, of the moment, derived from influences etc. but then criticise a perfectly good lyric. The subject matter may be as old as the hills, but the fact is, no one had ever expressed the boy meets girl story in the way that lyric does. The writer, in the moment, from within, etc. Ring any bells? You're unjustifiably attaching more importance to what you're doing, even if you're not making a direct link from one to the other. That's where opinion slips into pretension.[/quote] All perfectly valid points. My use of 'you' as opposed to I 'is' is, as you correctly point out, grammatically incorrect - I should probably have said 'if [b]one[/b] plays too many etc' but, culturally, I would be unlikely to use that term, like. Re: criticising bubblegum lyrics - it was a dig at tBBC, a mischievious joke, a bit of banter! Hence the emocion. (Still don't like those lyrics, tho') Re my opinions slipping into pretension - that's where they like to spend most of their free time. Hence my plan for world domination In terms of attaching more importance to what I am doing, it is it's importance to ME that I am referring to - isn't that what integrity is? My best gigs are always in front of the smallest audiences (but not beacuse they are the smallest audiences). Ellis Marsalis once said to Wynton 'If you play for applause, that's all you'll ever get'. God, my life is complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='crez5150' post='211849' date='Jun 3 2008, 03:21 PM']too many people thinking that they will get a pro outfit for less than a grand...[/quote] Probably too many booking agents, event organisers, etc with really bad ears thinking that the £250 band seems no different to the £1000 outfit. Say what you will about the music industry but the bigwigs tend to be able to tell the difference between good and bad, even those totally non-musician types like Simon Cowell. You can have us for £250 for your wedding - unfortunately we won't be playing any songs you know, unless you're one of the (sadly) very select few that have seen us loitering around the dingier Brightonian venues... Something anyone within vague reach of Brighton should check out is The Brighton Beach Boys plus The Psychedelic Love Orchestra performing the whole of Pet Sounds and Sgt Pepper back to back, as part of the Brighton Festival. The most utterly mindblowing gig of my life and that's topping some huge acts playing very significant gigs! It made me realise that there is huge value in some tribute acts. Incredible. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='211854' date='Jun 3 2008, 03:30 PM']Re my opinions slipping into pretension - that's where they like to spend most of their free time. Hence my plan for world domination [/quote] Thats very funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='211856' date='Jun 3 2008, 03:31 PM']It made me realise that there is huge value in some tribute acts. Incredible.[/quote] I know that mine is fundamentally an indefensible position but surely this kind of perspective is what is killing jazz and classical music? It was all perfect yesteryear so lets recreated the Golden Era? Its a false economy, isn't it? It drives me nuts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 how do you mean? (I'm a bit dim) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I have never seen a tribute band but can easily understand why someone would want to go see someone perform like their favourite band either for a 10th of the price or because they don't exist anymore, don't tour anymore or don't tour in the UK. I have seen several tribute bands advertised that I would be prefectly willing to go and see. But the evidence suggests that, if these things take off, they will clog up the venues (e.g. the Railway in Ipswich, Spa Pavillion in Felixstowe) and replace anyone trying to do anything creative or new (like 'classical' composers or contemporary jazz musicians). Turns the whole world into cabaret! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.