Mics for bass, and other stuff too.

[MiltyG565]

recording. I said earlier in the thread that i wanted to get a mixer, nothing fancy, just something to do, but i was told not to even bother spending my money on something like a behringer xenyx.

[51m0n]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1362301096' post='1998011']
Would this mixer that Zenitram is selling do?

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/199943-for-sale-yamaha-mx124-mixer/
[/quote]

In short no.
It's a live mixer by the look of it. No direct outs, no tape ins, not suitable for recording properly.

Why are you determined to fight the advice of the people on here so hard? It's good advice from experienced people who have been there and done that and are entitled yo the T-shirt.

Edited March 4, 2013 by 51m0n

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1362438015' post='1999924']
In short no.
It's a live mixer by the look of it. No direct outs, no tape ins, not suitable for recording properly.

Why are you determined to fight the advice of the people on here so hard? It's good advice from experienced people who have been there and done that and are entitled yo the T-shirt.
[/quote]

I'm sorry? what advice am i fighting? i'm getting the DI box, as you recommended. I'm micing the bass cab as you suggested. I don't understand what advice i'm fighting. I know you have an absolute ton of experience, and that is why i asked, and i had hoped from a response from you in particular when i posted, Simon. (not that i don't value the advice from others, i do).

I'm an absolute novice remember.

[Zenitram]

The mixer has four subgroups that can be used as direct outs, and it does indeed have tape in.

Edit: though it doesn't have tape ins, in the plural.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Zenitram

[51m0n]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1362439715' post='1999951']
I'm sorry? what advice am i fighting? i'm getting the DI box, as you recommended. I'm micing the bass cab as you suggested. I don't understand what advice i'm fighting. I know you have an absolute ton of experience, and that is why i asked, and i had hoped from a response from you in particular when i posted, Simon. (not that i don't value the advice from others, i do).

I'm an absolute novice remember.
[/quote]

I think the best advice given here so far is keep it simple. For example one of the most enlightening moments I had when recording was realising that two mics on a drum kit in the right place sound better than ten mics that arent absolutely perfect. Four mics is now my personal favourite if I can. It makes the kit sound incredibly real, and still really powerful. More mics tend to dilute that reality, and more oftne than not introduce phase issues that are very hard if not impossible to sort out.

Dont go for more than a DI and a mic on the bass, do get a 2 channel reasonable (ie the very best you can afford) 2 channel interface. WIth which you will be able to record you bass and make it sound great.

You dont need a mixer, and a decent recording mixer is going to stretch your budget to breaking point (because they cost stupid money). Spend the money on the interface instead. You really only need two channels, the best of which are the Babyface or the Apogee Duet, MOTU are good (next tier down lets say), M-Audio have done usable interfaces (nothing spectacular).

If you can the [url="http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/steinberg-ur824-usb-audio-interface--89987?gclid=CKy357yr5LUCFUbKtAodNWoA6A"]Steinberg UR824[/url] is good enough to record a live album with according to [url="http://www.michaelwagener.com/html/ww.html"]Michael Wagner from Wireworld studios[/url] ( and he is extremely well regarded in the industry) - actually he used 3 of them but the point is they are good enough, it will give you 8 channels off the bat and you could go mad as a duck thinkin up complicated ways to record your bass . If you got one of those you would be able to ditch the DI too as it has instrument level inputs. Its overkill in a lot of ways for what you need, but its stupidly good kit for the cash.

A lot of ways to skin this particular cat, mixers arent in any of them that are worth while in my opinion....

Edited March 5, 2013 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1362440220' post='1999958']
The mixer has four subgroups that can be used as direct outs, and it does indeed have tape in.

Edit: though it doesn't have tape ins, in the plural.
[/quote]

I stand by what I said then, its really not suitable for a studio desk, you really need either 8 groups with outs or direct outs on every channel, plus a tape in on every channel and a tape return monitor level on every channel. Otherwise its a live desk, and wont achieve what you need it to to use it as a recording desk.

[Zenitram]

Yes I see what you mean. And I agree it's not what Milty needs; he needs a good interface and a DI box, and concentrate on getting a good clean, pure signal to his DAW.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1362444345' post='1999989']
I think the best advice given here so far is keep it simple. For example one of the most enlightening moments I had when recording was realising that two mics on a drum kit in the right place sound better than ten mics that arent absolutely perfect. Four mics is now my personal favourite if I can. It makes the kit sound incredibly real, and still really powerful. More mics tend to dilute that reality, and more oftne than not introduce phase issues that are very hard if not impossible to sort out.

Dont go for more than a DI and a mic on the bass, do get a 2 channel reasonable (ie the very best you can afford) 2 channel interface. WIth which you will be able to record you bass and make it sound great.

You dont need a mixer, and a decent recording mixer is going to stretch your budget to breaking point (because they cost stupid money). Spend the money on the interface instead. You really only need two channels, the best of which are the Babyface or the Apogee Duet, MOTU are good (next tier down lets say), M-Audio have done usable interfaces (nothing spectacular).

If you can the [url="http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/steinberg-ur824-usb-audio-interface--89987?gclid=CKy357yr5LUCFUbKtAodNWoA6A"]Steinberg UR824[/url] is good enough to record a live album with according to [url="http://www.michaelwagener.com/html/ww.html"]Michael Wagner from Wireworld studios[/url] ( and he is extremely well regarded in the industry) - actually he used 3 of them but the point is they are good enough, it will give you 8 channels off the bat and you could go mad as a duck thinkin up complicated ways to record your bass . If you got one of those you would be able to ditch the DI too as it has instrument level inputs. Its overkill in a lot of ways for what you need, but its stupidly good kit for the cash.

A lot of ways to skin this particular cat, mixers arent in any of them that are worth while in my opinion....
[/quote]

Cheers! looking at the Apogee Duet 2 now. Seems like a serious piece of kit!

My imagination just overtakes my skills sometimes But rest assured, after a while, i'm sure i'll be doing all the stupid things i shouldn't be in the interest of experimentation.

And just as a side note- If i do this well, it could possibly even get me in to uni. It's definitely worth spending the money on in my eyes. (just not studio mixer money )

[MiltyG565]

You would record electric guitar in the same way, wouldn't you?

[RockfordStone]

if you can't stretch to the apogee, something like a tascam us-144mII are decent value for the money.

i have used one for a couple of years, and have no massive problems, but as with everything, the better the interface, the better the sound.

if the guitar amp has a line out then yes, you would do the same, if not you would just mic it

[51m0n]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1362450557' post='2000014']
You would record electric guitar in the same way, wouldn't you?
[/quote]

Thats not as simple question to answer as you might think.

Are you looking to record a distorted/overdriven guitar sound?

Then dont DI the guitar from the amp, it will sound like utter crud, that there speaker is a really nice low pass filter that adds some interesting resonance as well (ie just an eq wont match what its doing at all).

The way to record an overdriven guitar is with one or two mics (hey that magic two again). Typically an SM57 and a ribbon mic of some kind (ribbons are fantastic, and probably not something you want to buy in the first year or two of your recording career - a Cascade Fathead II with Lundahl transformer will be more than adequate for your needs when you want one though).

The placement of the microphones is ultra critical, moving them half an inch closer or further away from the cab can cause phase issues, moving them half an inch toward the center of the cone or the edge of the cone can dramatically change the timbre they pick up, changing the angle by even a few degrees can change how they sound hugely too. Huge amounts has been written on the subject of guitar cab micing!

First things first, sm57 straight at the center of the cone as close as you can get without touching the speaker. This will be as bright a sound as you can get. As you move the mic further awway from the center of the cone it gets less brite sounding, if you turn it at an angle it gets less brite sounding. Experimetn, listen to the output, move the mic try again, rinse and repeat until its perfect. If you are recording yourself you have no excuse not to track the very best sounds you can, its lazyiness that stops people capturing great guitar sounds in the main - and neighbours who dont appreciate it of course.

SM57s can sound pretty harsh. Thats where the ribbon comes in, typically backed of a little (3 or 4 inches, phase is a major issue with two mics so watch it!) from the cab, turned through 45 degress (ribbons dont like plosives and very very high signal levels, or phantom power, they are from a more delicate age generally - but sound incredible). The ribbon will seem dull - on its own you can eq in a lot of top end without it sounding harsh though, mixed in with a 57 it will add warmth and body to the sound without the need to resort to eq to get that from the 57.

On the other hand if you are recording completely clean electric guitar (like Chic) then a DI is all you need ( or want), and a little chorus to taste...

Example of guitar recorded with an SM57 and a Cascade Fathead II:-
[url="https://soundcloud.com/51m0n-1/get-on-it/s-h2HsN"]https://soundcloud.c...t-on-it/s-h2HsN[/url]

Full chain on the guitar was, modified US Tele -> Cornford
-> SM57 -> API channel strip -> ALesis HD24
-> Fathead II -> Joe Meeq TwinQ -> ALesis HD24

Guitar is double and even triple tracked though...

Oh the bass on that track was a Musicman StingRay into a decent DI to the mic input of the Joe Meeq TwinQ with the iron switch on (adds an extra transformer that was overloading slightly for some added harmonic texture) compressing quite hard and EQ'ed on with the TwinQ eq then straight into the HD24. Sounds awfully good to me that bass sound, only one channel to....

Edited March 5, 2013 by 51m0n

[charic]

Or get yourself a Line6 Pod or equivilent

It won't sound the best but it will do most jobs slightly better than ok if you spend time with it and it won't annoy your parents

[51m0n]

The drums on these were recorded with just 4 mics:-
https://soundcloud.com/lines-horizontal/the-individuils
https://soundcloud.com/lines-horizontal/harvest

Edited March 5, 2013 by 51m0n

[RockfordStone]

ive grown to hate my line 6 pod, way too fuzzy for me

[51m0n]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1362495844' post='2000161']
Or get yourself a Line6 Pod or equivilent

It won't sound the best but it will do most jobs slightly better than ok if you spend time with it and it won't annoy your parents
[/quote]

Spoil sport

[MiltyG565]

The electric guitar mic be a slightly driven sound, because it would really only be used for solos.

[charic]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1362496115' post='2000173']
Spoil sport
[/quote]

Yeah a little, I'm all for Mic'ing (In fact my dissertation was on microphone placement) but the simple fact of the matter is if you get the urge to record at midnight you can't mic up without annoying someone.

[6v6]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1362496083' post='2000172']
ive grown to hate my line 6 pod, way too fuzzy for me
[/quote]

I'm a total tube amp geek, and I previously tried (and hated) the Line6 pod, but the latest PC based emulations are much much better IMO - GuitarRig, Amplitube, even the stuff built into Cubase is absolutely fine for many applications.

I still mic up an amp where possible, but for home (not studio/stage) recording, I'm not sure there's much point in annoying the neighbours anymore, certainly once in a mix, you'll not notice a lot of difference, particularly if the room, amp, mics or mic positioning is not 100%.

I suspect for what the OP wants to achieve, they would probably be better spending their money on a good low-latency interface with a couple of reasonable mic-pre's, and a couple of good amp plugins, and one reasonable mic for vocals.

Then they could focus on what I assume is important to them, ie the music/compositions, although given the content of this thread I'm not clear if they're aiming to compose some music or learn to engineer recordings - either is a worthy goal, but IME doing both at the same time is difficult, focussing too much on the technology normally kills any musical creativity for me.

[MiltyG565]

It's both. I want to record my music, and also learn how to record. It's a project with many sides to it for me. If it goes well, and i get a bit of a portfolio built up, then it might get me into uni, which as many will know, has been my goal for a good while. That isn't necessarily the motivation behind it, but it would be a good byproduct.

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1362501041' post='2000271']
I'm a total tube amp geek, and I previously tried (and hated) the Line6 pod, but the latest PC based emulations are much much better IMO - GuitarRig, Amplitube, even the stuff built into Cubase is absolutely fine for many applications.

I still mic up an amp where possible, but for home (not studio/stage) recording, I'm not sure there's much point in annoying the neighbours anymore, certainly once in a mix, you'll not notice a lot of difference, particularly if the room, amp, mics or mic positioning is not 100%.

I suspect for what the OP wants to achieve, they would probably be better spending their money on a good low-latency interface with a couple of reasonable mic-pre's, and a couple of good amp plugins, and one reasonable mic for vocals.

Then they could focus on what I assume is important to them, ie the music/compositions, although given the content of this thread I'm not clear if they're aiming to compose some music or learn to engineer recordings - either is a worthy goal, but IME doing both at the same time is difficult, focussing too much on the technology normally kills any musical creativity for me.
[/quote]

i use my pod and podfarm to cover a multitude of sins, i don't have the luxury of being a guitarist, so i don't have amps etc, so i use emulators as my replacement.

you can if you spend the time and effort get some passable tones. they are by no means the warmth and tone you can get from a real tube amp, but they can be ok if you slam them with enough plug ins

[MiltyG565]

This would do what i want alright, wouldn't it? Would love to get that Apogee Duet, but got to balance the quality with the cost unfortunately

http://www.thomann.de/gb/motu_4_pre.htm

[OldG]

You could do a lot worse than this Edirol interface for sale[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/200339-edirol-ur80-usb-interface-l70-needs-to-go/"] here [/url]...

[51m0n]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1362626527' post='2002424']
This would do what i want alright, wouldn't it? Would love to get that Apogee Duet, but got to balance the quality with the cost unfortunately

http://www.thomann.de/gb/motu_4_pre.htm
[/quote]

That's the sort of thing yes.

Check s few reviews to make sure the drivers are good for the platform you have (Mac or PC)

Most people with MOTU kit love it right up until they try Apogee or RME ;D

Edited March 7, 2013 by 51m0n

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1362646116' post='2002507']
That's the sort of thing yes.

Check s few reviews to make sure the drivers are good for the platform you have (Mac or PC)

Most people with MOTU kit love it right up until they try Apogee or RME ;D
[/quote]

If money was no object, i would go all out on the recording gear. And also pay somebody to come and teach me how to use it all But as it stands, i'll just stick to the home hobbyist equipment for now.

[gapiro]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1361888451' post='1992483']
Imma gonna get me some of them silver bullets. I don't even have anything particular to record with them, but I like 'em. How dumb is that.
[/quote]
Use them for one of the funcdtion bands I run sound for. Excellent mics for drums, and fit into most mic clips too