wateroftyne Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360750098' post='1975680'] Mastering has a lot to answer for, all pop is mastered to be the loudest it can be, with tiny RMS to peak ratios, ibut the desperate need to produce loud mixes also means that the mix engineers are also gettiing in on that act, they are limiting audio on very peaky signals (kick drums, snares etc) to get maximum level, they are taking ducking and sidechain techniques and p[arallel compression to extremes, carving eq harder than ever to get more and more seperation. Panning is LCR as much as possible to aid seperation. This isnt new at all, I was listening to Curtis Mayfields Superfly the other day, and you can hear some of these elements even on that (LCR panning oin nearly everything, great seperation etc etc), but then the idea was to create a cohesive mix, now its to make a loud mix, the intention is different, and one thing that happens when you take this to the logical conclusion is the bass looses everything over 125Hz, because it isnt 'necessary' in the eyes of the engineer, and will make it harder to get loud. Its not directly to do with digital versus analogue really though, its all about trends in music and what is perceived to be the best way to get the mix across. Digital definitely allows for a far wider frequency range, especially in the low end, but having that available doesnt necessarily mean people no longer add enough midrange info into bass sounds into a track. Once again have a listen to the Kit Richardson stuff I did, Nigel's bass is clear as a bell, you can hear every single note and inflection, its also got plenty of bass energy - anyone here worth his salt could transcribe the bass parts to the Kit stuff without a problem I think! Personally I think live sound is at least as much to blame, the current insanity with unbeleavable low end sub bass dominating every mix and SPLs over 110dB are making people think that music only sounds good when the bass is a mahoosive wall of unintelligable sludge trying to rearrange your organs. I like it loud, but I like my hearing more, and a great mix live or on a recording os the one that carried the emotional content of the performance and track best to the listener, in some cases a wall of unintelligble sludge would be the best solution for that, but nowhere near as often as it is offered as the solution. [/quote] Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360750098' post='1975680'] Personally I think live sound is at least as much to blame, the current insanity with unbeleavable low end sub bass dominating every mix and SPLs over 110dB are making people think that music only sounds good when the bass is a mahoosive wall of unintelligable sludge trying to rearrange your organs. I like it loud, but I like my hearing more, and a great mix live or on a recording os the one that carried the emotional content of the performance and track best to the listener, in some cases a wall of unintelligble sludge would be the best solution for that, but nowhere near as often as it is offered as the solution. [/quote] +1 So far this year I've given up on two concerts where all I could hear was a wall of drum and bass. I wasn't the only one who left but they'd already got our money so I guess no-one cares. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1360756490' post='1975838'] +1 So far this year I've given up on two concerts where all I could hear was a wall of drum and bass. I wasn't the only one who left but they'd already got our money so I guess no-one cares. Steve [/quote] They'll care when you don't go back, in general drums are way to loud at a lot of gigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruiner Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='spongebob' timestamp='1360674439' post='1974299'] I agree - modern bass sounds leave me cold. A background 'thump' with no definition is not bass. Melody, and adding to the song is! I did some recording recently, and TBH, was unhappy with the results. After much pushing, the bass was more defined in the mix than at first, but was still nowhere enough for me. I didn't want it out front, but clear enough to hear the lines, not just a deep thud - it's what it sounds like to me, anyway! [/quote] I feel your pain. Had the exact same experience a few months back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Something I've spotted a couple of times is guys using multi way cabs with mid drivers, and just the woofer is miced, which is going to pretty much ensure just lows making it to the PA. A senior bassist mate went to see Nathan East play and that was going on, bass solo you could feel but not hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1360757272' post='1975854'] Something I've spotted a couple of times is guys using multi way cabs with mid drivers, and just the woofer is miced, which is going to pretty much ensure just lows making it to the PA. A senior bassist mate went to see Nathan East play and that was going on, bass solo you could feel but not hear. [/quote] That is mental. If you need to mic anything mic the mid drivers, the low end is generally best served from a DI, if you want a really great sounding warm bass DI and you have the cash then a REDDI is unbeatable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achknalligewelt Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 We managed this: [url="https://soundcloud.com/#woodmanstone/im-living-for-the-weekend"]https://soundcloud.com/#woodmanstone/im-living-for-the-weekend[/url] I played a roundwounded Squire Jazz with a pick straight into the console, through a digital amp simulator. I must admit, though, I had to push the engineer into taking out bass in favour of mid. I think it's a good sound, but then again, we're not aiming for a contemporary sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan_da_man Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Precision w/ flats > Ampeg B15. Zzz... Use a decent engineer or just learn to do it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='Stan_da_man' timestamp='1360779466' post='1976409'] Precision w/ flats > Ampeg B15. Zzz... Use a decent engineer or just learn to do it yourself. [/quote] Hmmmm...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1360663574' post='1974063'] the modern fashion for having the bass drum with loads of treble dialed in. [/quote] What's the point in that? It's the bass drum. BASS- A range of low frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360782448' post='1976497'] What's the point in that? It's the bass drum. BASS- A range of low frequencies. [/quote] precisley, but I'm hearing it more and more, seems bloody stupid to me, I think Metallica started it with Justice for All, could be wrong though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1360782738' post='1976504'] precisley, but I'm hearing it more and more, seems bloody stupid to me, I think Metallica started it with Justice for All, could be wrong though [/quote] But what exactly is the point of it? To get a more tinny sound? That's just stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 The point is to make room for bass, and use the power of the transient coupled with it's short duration to allow drummers to play more complex kick drum parts that don't lose intelligibility in a busy mix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360790992' post='1976680'] The point is to make room for bass, and use the power of the transient coupled with it's short duration to allow drummers to play more complex kick drum parts that don't lose intelligibility in a busy mix... [/quote] Oh right. That doesn't bother me. I don't really want to play with a drummer that wants to over-complicate the bass drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360790992' post='1976680'] The point is to make room for bass, and use the power of the transient coupled with it's short duration to allow drummers to play more complex kick drum parts that don't lose intelligibility in a busy mix... [/quote] oh right, I think I can see that thanks, but I always thought the idea of the kick drum was to fill out the really low frequencies, but I suppose they're using the bass for that which is why there's no definition, this is where I came in me thinks. But at least I understand the clicking kick drum now, still seems bloody stupid though, but that's fashion for you, looking back everybody thinks "who thought that was a good idea" anybody remember the really loud snares in the 80's? went to a gig the other night and could hardly hear the snare for the tinny bass drum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1360791738' post='1976701'] oh right, I think I can see that thanks, but I always thought the idea of the kick drum was to fill out the really low frequencies, but I suppose they're using the bass for that which is why there's no definition, this is where I came in me thinks. But at least I understand the clicking kick drum now, still seems bloody stupid though, but that's fashion for you, looking back everybody thinks "who thought that was a good idea" anybody remember the really loud snares in the 80's? went to a gig the other night and could hardly hear the snare for the tinny bass drum [/quote] Just listening to Blood Sugar Sex Magik and everything sounds like it should to me. Low bass drum to accentuate the accents of the bass guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 There is a time and a place for it I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360792709' post='1976726'] Just listening to Blood Sugar Sex Magik and everything sounds like it should to me. Low bass drum to accentuate the accents of the bass guitar. [/quote] There I'd a ton of click in Chef's kick drum sound on Blood Sugar Edited February 13, 2013 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360795574' post='1976806'] There is a time and a place for it I agree [/quote] yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360795591' post='1976807'] There I'd a ton of click in Chef's kick drum sound on Blood Sugar [/quote] +1 I think, lots of click on Chads KD. And the snare is bloody loud too! Personally I don't like a clicky bass drums, but in some types of music it works well to accentuate the rhythm. Combining very low and very high frequencies like that also makes things sound BIG. Just like in orchestral arrangement when you have low notes and high notes with not much in between there is more vastness to the arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1360750098' post='1975680'] NS10s were the most awful items to mix on IMO. [/quote] Thank goodness folks are wising up to that. I hate them too. They are okay for doing vocals, but beyond that I think they are the most brittle sounding monitors I have used. Good for play back reference, but mixing down? Forget it. I know of a couple of engineers that will use them for everything...play back, mixing and mastering. Usually, engineers that don't know how to mix live drums and bass properly in my experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 just watched the remake of Please Please Me and the bass and drum sound was spot on, just goes to show it can still be done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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