rest strokes vs speed

[wishface]

There are lots of advantages to using rest strokes, well two: tone and muting. The latter is perhaps the most important for me as it allows my r hand to sit on the bass closer to strings so that it can mute more effectively, along with the finger resting on the adjacent string as it plays.
However when playing at, or trying to, speed rest strokes are inefficient IMO. They use too much motion and too much of the finger to deal with speed effectively and can create string noise of their own ([url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5luoLV2J8&feature=related"]listen[/url] to how John Myung plays: his chops may be awesome but to my ears that's an undesirable tone). Though some people like 'arry from Iron Miaden seem to make this work in their favour.
So should I concentrate solely on playing with rest strokes and just practice hard to develop speed, or are free strokes really the way to play at speed? But when i use free strokes my hand arches off the bass too much as a means of playing (more like flea, but not restricted to anchoring on the pickup). This isn't uncomfortable at all, it's not a physically stressful thing, but it does compromise RH muting completely.
Thanks.

[chrismuzz]

I like to do a combination of left and right hand muting, with some compression which seems to clean things up well enough for the mix. It's not a perfect model but I'm more or less content with the results

If you listen to a lot of isolated bass tracks or solo playing youll notice that it's extremely rare for even the most accomplished of players to perform without getting a bit of noise here and there. Players like John Myung seem to make it part of their sound and even set up their tone to accentuate these noises. Though I'm sure as you practice more and more you'll get closer to the style and sound you want

[wishface]

I think Myung gets away with it because he uses 3 fingers. Not sure that's what I want to do; it'll take a long time to learn that. But his tone is dire; thin and flappy.

[clarket2]

Free strokes make accenting and dynamics harder to perform effectively as you get a much less solid stroke.

I am a little confused (sorry probably me being thick) but where are you resting your thumb? Ie are you keeping it on a pickup or moving it around?

Cheers,
Tom (www.tomclarkebass.co.uk)

[wishface]

Do you really get a much less solid stroke? I'm not sure that's true. It's a different tonal quality.

I rest my thumb all over the place. Depends what string i'm playing, usuallty i rest on the string behind, most of the time it's the a or e, and the pickup for playing on the e. Nothing too clever.

[clarket2]

Perhaps we are talking about different things. I think of a free stroke as where you don't pull through the string but sort of across it without hitting the string below. It works ok if your playing softer stuff or chordally maybe but if you want to accent anything you wind up popping the string.

What I found helped with getting rest stroles quicker was to keep my thumb on the string below so I was always pulling through to hit my thumb. This kept my hand relaxed and softened the tone of the stroke whilst still allowing you to dig in if needed. It took a bit of getting used to but has served me well.... Steve Lawson uses a similar technique when he plays.

[wishface]

A free stroke, at least for me, is smaller than a rest stroke because the latter has to come to rest on the string above. It's that level of movement that makes them slower; when i practice free strokes, the movement is smaller. It's almost like tickling the string, there's less contact, but the hand is more arched off the body, hence the muting problem.

[clarket2]

Yeah sounds like we mean the same. Yeah its that "tickling" that always gets to me just because you don't get the definition and power that you get from a rest stroke. Yeah try keeping your thumb on the string below (even going up to the d) as I found.it.keeps.my hand more relaxed

[Doddy]

Just out of interest,I use rest strokes nearly all the time when playing fingerstyle and I've
never had a problem with speed.

[wishface]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1345918888' post='1783192']
Just out of interest,I use rest strokes nearly all the time when playing fingerstyle and I've
never had a problem with speed.
[/quote]

do you play fast?

[wishface]

[quote name='clarket2' timestamp='1345917838' post='1783172']
Yeah sounds like we mean the same. Yeah its that "tickling" that always gets to me just because you don't get the definition and power that you get from a rest stroke. Yeah try keeping your thumb on the string below (even going up to the d) as I found.it.keeps.my hand more relaxed
[/quote]

But with the thumb trailing like that you have the problem of muting with the right hand, which is the problem in the first place with free stroke playing (at least for me). I'm very familiar with playing either technique, but when i play faster i tend towards free strokes.

[Doddy]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1345927104' post='1783333']
do you play fast?
[/quote]
Yes

[nottswarwick]

I'm with Doddy on this one.

Take a listen to some Classical Guitar music and hear some devastating free stroke single melody line speed too.

For me at least, free strokes lend themselves to arpeggio playing (again c/f classical guitar), whereas for single not lines (ie most grooving bass playing, fast or slow) free strokes are the way. Not the only way, granted, but the accepted method I would say.

[clarket2]

You still get the muting with that moveable thumb technique as your thumb rests on the string below. It's literally a rest stroke but with the anchor moving more often in order to relax the hand.

I'd agree with the above comment though that rest strokes are the way to go. Free strokes are more for chordal and softer playing in my opinion

[Doddy]

[quote name='clarket2' timestamp='1346003889' post='1784009']
You still get the muting with that moveable thumb technique as your thumb rests on the string below. It's literally a rest stroke but with the anchor moving more often in order to relax the hand.
[/quote]
But what you are talking about is thumb/anchoring position,not the actual finger stroke. You can still anchor your thumb and
play free strokes as opposed to rest strokes...Gerald Veasley does this a lot when he plays quickly.Likewise,you can
do the whole floating thumb thing (Todd Johnson style) and play rest strokes.

[wishface]

both seem equally valid techniques; the problem i have is right hand muting. Free stroke playing especially doesn't lend itself to this. I find i'm starting to float the thumb around when i play on the 4 th string, but i'm still not convinced about floating thumb playing. Again, with free stroke, it feels unwieldy, lacking that anchor. Perhaps that's just lack of experience (and shoulder muscle!)

[Doddy]

Like I said earlier,you can still use a free stroke while having your thumb anchored if you want. If you are set on
not using rest strokes and not using the floating thumb method,you can easily mute with the right hand by using
your thumb and any remaining fingers,similar to the way that John Patitucci does. Assuming that you are playing a
four string,when playing on the upper strings you can use your thumb on the string below the one you are playing,
and your ring and/or little fingers on the low E string.This works even better,I find,on 5 and 6 string basses-I do
it all the time.You can then use whatever stroke you want,or are comfortable with,while still muting with your right
hand.

[wishface]

The way that john pattituci mutes is the way jaco does and my hand doesn't bend that way. You need big hands to make that technique work without compromising the movement of your plucking fingers.

[Doddy]

[quote name='wishface' timestamp='1346008361' post='1784080']
The way that john pattituci mutes is the way jaco does and my hand doesn't bend that way. You need big hands to make that technique work without compromising the movement of your plucking fingers.
[/quote]
You don't need big hands at all...I have normal sized hands and do this all the time and there isn't any compromise to my
plucking fingers. All you are doing is moving your anchor point,which gives less strain on the hands and wrist,and then
rather than tucking your remaining fingers into your hand you open them up a little to touch the strings.There is no need
to contort your hand or wrist-in fact you can keep them straighter than if you anchor your thumb in one point.

[wishface]

do you rake or use strict alternation?

[Doddy]

I never seen anyone use strict alternation all the time. Everyone starts raking when string crossing
when descending,especially at higher tempos.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1346152434' post='1785800']
I never seen anyone use strict alternation all the time. Everyone starts raking when string crossing
when descending,especially at higher tempos.
[/quote]


+1. It all depends on what the music requires. If SA is not required in a given piece of music, I dont see much point in applying it, unless you see it as a "rule".

We are supposed to be playing [b]music [/b]after all.

[wishface]

You would need to alternate however when skipping strings (perhaps doing runs from Gstring to A string, or octaves).

[wishface]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1346156203' post='1785860']
+1. It all depends on what the music requires. If SA is not required in a given piece of music, I dont see much point in applying it, unless you see it as a "rule".

We are supposed to be playing [b]music [/b]after all.
[/quote]

I understand, but practicing SA seemed the best way of doing things given that there are certain situations where raking isn't the best answer, and developing equal strength/independence in both fingers (assuming standard 2 finger playing) is vital. Isn't it?

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1346009567' post='1784103']

You don't need big hands at all...I have normal sized hands and do this all the time and there isn't any compromise to my
plucking fingers. All you are doing is moving your anchor point,which gives less strain on the hands and wrist,and then
rather than tucking your remaining fingers into your hand you open them up a little to touch the strings.There is no need
to contort your hand or wrist-in fact you can keep them straighter than if you anchor your thumb in one point.
[/quote]

This

And I sometimes rake and sometimes alternate.