Big outdoor stages, how can i use (and hear) the DB?

[BassInMyFace]

hi folks, my DB journey playing wise is going great but the nuts and bolts of using it live are pretty much leaving me scratching my head.
im a electric bass player who took for granted pickups and massive rigs, turning up 10 mins before gig, pluggin into amp and let sound man do the rest out front.

that doesnt work with DB does it??!

so current set up is
solid top bass (cheap and cheerful but a pleasant if slightly quiet acoustic sound)
black nylon wound strings (thumpy and nice slap sound when i occaisonally give it a smack)
DHA DI EQ (kindly loaned to me by amazingly generous basschatter TPJ)
Fishman BP100 pickup (yes i know how most people feel about this but honestly i havent found it too bad, the tone is fine not quacky at all, you just have to experiment with placement on bridge and keep clips tight)

so this is what i have and so far band rehearsals are ok. get alot of feedback through bass amps turned up anywhere beyond 1/4 so always a bit quieter than i'd like.

gigs have been disastrous. outdoor stage in brum city centre, onstage amp cant go above 1/4 main volume without heinous feedback so tried getting some bass in monitors but cant get enough without feedback so end up doing the gig blind (or is that deaf). crowd reported that bass out front was very low volume, sound man struggled like hell.

my concern is that festival season is looming and my band is lucky enough to be booked for 10+ large outdoor/tented stages.

would really appreciate some pointers from you folks on how i can get a dependable stage sound that i can hear and punchy powerful sound out front. have to drive a 7 piece electro swing band so need a big phat tone.

can i (A) get up and running with current setup? ( replace 1 or 2 items to get going or (C) money no object (short of a new DB or EUB) what should i consider?


really interested in your thoughts as at present i have to consider resigning my lovely new toy to instrument graveyard and going back to dependable old electric bass.

[Monckyman]

I know you reckon your pickup isn`t that bad, but a higher output one would really help get the most out of your initial sound before amplification.
The sound man needs level, more than tone otherwise a great deal of what he`s trying to turn up is simply fresh air.
Experiment with a few pickups.

For your own monitoring you could try a smaller sized driver cab like something with 8s in, and use it on a stand so it`s up past the bass body and near your ears!
You won`t need serious bottom end, just definition and level, and the smaller drivers will really help keep it tight.
Good luck!

[ratking]

Don't play DB myself, but started as guitar player - yes, shame on me - in a death/groove metal project with DB. Had exactly the same problem, even at rehearsal (we DO play loud ) ... EQing helped a lot, the most important thing was to reall cut the bass frequencies. The PA signal is pre-amp anyway, and for rehearsal and stage sound we boost the high mids for more definition - we can all hear the DB quite well that way, and front of house we (OK, not we, but the audience) still get one hell of deep DB bass mayhem

Edited March 11, 2012 by ratking

[PaulKing]

Get a pre-amp.
Keep your gain levels down, get your volume from master output levels.
Block your f-holes. (Funnily enough I can rustle you up some smart f-hole plugs for a price...)
Get an Underwood pickup. Or magnetic.... (

[deepbass5]

[size=2][size=4]Just thinking it was this very situation, the electric bass got invented, out of necessity. That’s not meant as a flippant remark just on reflection, but thanks to advances in amplification you will probably sort it and be able to project some nice acoustic bass out to the masses [/size] [/size]

Edited March 11, 2012 by deepbass5

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='PaulKing' timestamp='1331496436' post='1573824']
Get a pre-amp.
Keep your gain levels down, get your volume from master output levels.
Block your f-holes. (Funnily enough I can rustle you up some smart f-hole plugs for a price...)
Get an Underwood pickup. Or magnetic.... (
[/quote]

am using the DHA DI EQ which by all accounts is a pretty decent preamp.
do your F hole plugs make an appreciable difference? the idea seems solid but how effective is it in practice?

anyone know if there are any nylon feel strings that work with magnetic pickups?

[spencer.b]

I feel your pain mate , to be honest my advice would be get used to it. I've done tons of big outdoor stages on upright and if the rest of the band have a lot of volume in their wedges you're gonna struggle. I did a string of european festivals last summer playing both basses and on electric it was easy, just crank up the SVT and away you go, on upright however most gigs I ended up putting my ear plugs in accepting that I couldn't really hear it.You could try a really horrible nasal middley honky tone with no bottom in it so you can at least hear the pitch. There's no easy answer it's an acoustic instrument after all. The only time if had a good sound on a big outdoor stage was a jazz festival with my DPA 4099 and a tiny bit of realist mixed in for a bit of reinforcement but that only really worked cos the stage levels were pretty low and at festivals with just a quick line check if your lucky that ain't gonna happen. So I'd say don't get to hung up on it, festivals sound sh*t but try and get into the music anyway don't let it ruin your gig

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='BassInMyFace' timestamp='1331501292' post='1573905']

anyone know if there are any nylon feel strings that work with magnetic pickups?
[/quote]
I don't think nylon strings will work with a magnetic pick up.
Try a full circle pu
roll as much of the bass of your stage monitor as possible
Try using a speaker at head height.
If the onstage sound is causing your bass to vibrate then there's little you can do. I feel your pain

[PaulKing]

Presto strings work with mag pick up, very similar to innovation in every other way. Innovation are working on a nylon set with steel winding inside.
Fhole plugs work very well for small-mid sized gigs, and the few times I've played on bigger outdoor stages too, but I've not really tested on big rigs. Got a few festivals this summer, I'll let you know!

[moonbass]

If you're using your own amplifier could you get a headphone line out and use a small in ear headphone bud in one ear to monitor yourself? Or find/add another preamp with a headphone out capability?

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='PaulKing' timestamp='1331543317' post='1574272']
Presto strings work with mag pick up, very similar to innovation in every other way. Innovation are working on a nylon set with steel winding inside.
Fhole plugs work very well for small-mid sized gigs, and the few times I've played on bigger outdoor stages too, but I've not really tested on big rigs. Got a few festivals this summer, I'll let you know!
[/quote]

Yes, I found the presto nylon wound strings, seems like a genius idea. Anyone used the presto nylon wounds or the presto jazzicato? Seems like it could be a solution for me if I get a mag pickup cos then feedback is a non event. Anyone used the krivo hum bucking pup on gollihur? Seems like a good compromise for as natural tone as you can get via magnet, plus some fingerboard click gets in on the action thanks to enhanced microphonics (????!).
http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/2435-KRIVO_HUMBUCKING_MAGNETIC_UPRIGHT_BASS_PICKUP_INCLUDES_FREE_JACK_MOUNT.html

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1331544731' post='1574308']
If you're using your own amplifier could you get a headphone line out and use a small in ear headphone bud in one ear to monitor yourself? Or find/add another preamp with a headphone out capability?
[/quote]

Did think about this, reckon it solves the on stage problems but not really treating the underlying cause of the issue. Thanks for suggestion and I will do some experimenting.

[fatback]

The Kent Armstrong is a good mag pickup. If you order one, just make sure he prewires it and supplies a connecting lead/jack.

I'd think a lot depends on the sources of the feedback. If it's from your own monitor, you can raise your speaker on a keyboard stand and point it across the band. you'll lose bottom but it doesn't matter if the FOH is doing the work. If the feedback is from stage monitors, even when the bass is not in the stage mix, I'd see a mag pickup as the answer.

btw, you could always use both - a mag pup for on stage monitoring and a piezzo for FOH. I haven;t tried this, although I'm set up for it, but it might be worth a shot. The sound guy might even want to mix them?

[keeponehandloose]

Dont try the Krivo ,its plagued with hum problems that can make it almost unusable.
Feedback comes from the front and back of the body vibrating,squeeze the body between you knees when playing-if this helps
get a small inflatable beach ball push it into the bass side f hole and pump it up hard.
watch you dont move the soundpost and away you go.
Seriously, it works.

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1331555839' post='1574606']
The Kent Armstrong is a good mag pickup. If you order one, just make sure he prewires it and supplies a connecting lead/jack.

I'd think a lot depends on the sources of the feedback. If it's from your own monitor, you can raise your speaker on a keyboard stand and point it across the band. you'll lose bottom but it doesn't matter if the FOH is doing the work. If the feedback is from stage monitors, even when the bass is not in the stage mix, I'd see a mag pickup as the answer.

btw, you could always use both - a mag pup for on stage monitoring and a piezzo for FOH. I haven;t tried this, although I'm set up for it, but it might be worth a shot. The sound guy might even want to mix them?
[/quote]

Can't find any info on the Kent Armstrong pickup other than a very brief description on the company website? Seems odd as no tech specs whatsoever.
Not a lot of choice when it comes to mag pickups is there? So far I have found biesele, krivo, schattler, stringcharger and something beginning with z from germany. Krivo is my front runner at mo.

For me feedback kicks in whenever volume rises to drum kit kind of level. Eq'ing doesnt help and happens with multiple different amps and configurations. I think fundamental problem is amount of signal that the pickup gives out is very low. Therefore to get to any appreciable volume I am cranking the signal so high it is incredibly sensitive. I like the idea of a magnetic because it's low grief, with big stages and line checks only I need the dependance that magnetic can provide. A simple blend of piezo and mag will be nice and straight forward I reckon, especially considering primary concern is power and punch not beautiful tone.

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1331556653' post='1574638']
Dont try the Krivo ,its plagued with hum problems that can make it almost unusable.
Feedback comes from the front and back of the body vibrating,squeeze the body between you knees when playing-if this helps
get a small inflatable beach ball push it into the bass side f hole and pump it up hard.
watch you dont move the soundpost and away you go.
Seriously, it works.
[/quote]

Wow, I love this tip, exactly what I was after in terms of a no cost solution!! I dont even care if it doesn't work, it has to be worth a try!!!

Re the krivo are you referring to the older model as plenty of forum posts are concerned with that? Apparently the newest version is completely hum free and by all accounts looks to be closest a mag pup comes to sounding like a db and not a massive fretless p bass. Please let me know if you are familiar with the new version or would recommend any alternatives.

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='BassInMyFace' timestamp='1331563320' post='1574840']
especially considering primary concern is power and punch not beautiful tone.
[/quote]
Then surely you'd be better off using an EB?

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1331563953' post='1574859']

Then surely you'd be better off using an EB?
[/quote]

It would certainly solve a lot of this hassle, but that's all part of the fun isn't it!?!?
If I can't find a work around I will have to revert to EB. Seems very early in my db career to give up tho.

The DB has so far offered me a real insight in how to do more with less. Lines that would sound dull on EB are full of character and really add an old time feel to the sound. I'm playing stuff I would never dream of on the EB and it's making me a better musician for understanding a differnet approach to something that was so familiar. Don't hate me for saying this but it also looks damn awesome on stage!!

I'm hooked and am determined to find a way. So far magnetic pickups are ticking all the right boxes in my head.

[fatback]

You won't find much on the KA website. Aaron Armstrong makes the pups to fit your bass; you give him the profile of the end of your fingerboard.

I paid £90 for mine, a very good price indeed for the product.

You can mail him at [email protected].

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1331568648' post='1574971']
You won't find much on the KA website. Aaron Armstrong makes the pups to fit your bass; you give him the profile of the end of your fingerboard.

I paid £90 for mine, a very good price indeed for the product.

You can mail him at [email protected].
[/quote]

Hmmmmm, that sounds very reasonable. How does it sound then? Is there much db character to it or is it very much a electric sound. Any hum?? Does it pick up any fingerboard click as the Krivo purports to? Is there a mounting provided or do you need to screw it in?

[keeponehandloose]

The krivo i had was a couple of years back so maybe an early model . The good thing was that it sounded more woody than the stringcharger, which is the only mag I ve tried. It also had pole pieces you could push up or down to even out string volume. Not as cheap as a beach ball though, but if you try that its got to be one with pirates on it.

[fatback]

[quote name='BassInMyFace' timestamp='1331569674' post='1575001']
Hmmmmm, that sounds very reasonable. How does it sound then? Is there much db character to it or is it very much a electric sound. Any hum?? Does it pick up any fingerboard click as the Krivo purports to? Is there a mounting provided or do you need to screw it in?
[/quote]

Not a bad sound at all. Not at all too electric to my ears. No hum whatsoever; they're humbuckers and do what it says. You can adjust each string pickup height. I don't know about fingerboard click, as I don't slap. I'd offer to try it for you, but my amp isn't here atm.

The fitting system is excellent. It sits as a virtually invisible extension to the fingerboard, and as I said, is contoured to match the cross section and string spacing. You could fit it with velcro, but it comes with a pair of studs that you fix into the bottom of the fingerboard, which is better. I got my luthier to fit these, as I didn't fancy drilling at that angle. Once they're fitted, that's it, rock solid, no rattle.

I keep mine on as a permanent backup for the Full Circle (which i find very feedback resistant btw).

In effect its a custom job for your bass, which at that price is remarkable.

as I mentioned earlier, if you order a KA make sure you specify wired and with cable, socket etc. Or you'll be fiddling about with a soldering iron.

Edited March 12, 2012 by fatback

[BassInMyFace]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1331574161' post='1575122']
The krivo i had was a couple of years back so maybe an early model . The good thing was that it sounded more woody than the stringcharger, which is the only mag I ve tried. It also had pole pieces you could push up or down to even out string volume. Not as cheap as a beach ball though, but if you try that its got to be one with pirates on it.
[/quote]

has to be pirates? all of a sudden its getting complicated again......

[marvin spangles]

Hey Bassinmyface
I certainly wouldn't see this as a deal breaker re Db.
There is certainly a solution out there somewhere. What is the instrumentation of your band?

[LarsTimm]

You could get your luthier to fit a second sound post on the bass side, and plug the f-holes with foam. This should remove almost all of the acoustic sound, but help with the feedback.

I think this is what the "rockabilly" guys are doing.
You can also find a video on youtube with Miles Mosley from Namm, where he talks about his Blastcult bass and feedback.

Disclamer: I have not tried this myself - No need yet.

/Lars