Logistics of a second string tree

[Jono Bolton]

The E string on my Jazz buzzes a fair bit when I'm playing and I can't for the life of me figure out what's causing it. Swapping and adjusting the nut doesn't make a difference, nor does adjusting the string height at the bridge end. Playing the E string open and putting a wee bit of pressure on it between the tuning post and the nut stops the buzz, but I obviously can't be doing that while I'm playing. If I'm using a pick and dig in then the E can occasionally jump out of the nut slot. The obvious solution to my mind is another string tree. This would have to go between the E and A strings, but it would be awfully close to the nut. Is there any sort of structural weak spot here? Would having a string tree here alter the intonation in anyway?

[RayFW]

You could use one of these across all strings:
[url="http://www.warmoth.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=64_78_97&products_id=23021"]http://www.warmoth.com/catalog/product_inf...oducts_id=23021[/url]

[GreeneKing]

If you're applying more tension to the string to get rid of the buzz then the tighter string will vibrate a smaller 'volume' and not hit the frets. You may well find that if you fit a 2nd string tree and re-tune the string down to E the buzz'll return as you drop the tension again.

I think that the solution mayl be in set up (neck relief and action height) and if necessary some fret dressing. How hard do you play btw, the string jumping out of the nut sounds interesting

You may have a problem with the nut too. Oops re-read thread and see you've changed the nut.

Peter

Edited March 21, 2008 by GreeneKing

[BigRedX]

Before spending any money on a second string tree and drilling extra holes in your bass which may have no effect, try fitting a new E string and leave extra string length on it so you get another one or two turns around the machine head post, increasing the break angle like the string tree would. If this doesn't cure the problem then as GreenKing says you need to look else where for a solution.

TBH break angle on the E is rarely a problem unless you have a minimal ammount of string around the the machine head.

[steve-soar]

Hi Jono, how have you wound the E string onto the tuner post? I restrung my Precision last night and put 4 turns of string underneath each other. This makes the string come off the post at the same angle as the D and G strings. The only string I've had trouble with has been the A string but I just put 5 turns on it at the post. I think that I'll order a Hipshot 3 string retainer, $12, worth it for even string break behind the nut.
Anyway if you have another E string to fit, if the one on it is too short, leave at least 20 cms extra string past the tuner post, put the string right down into the slot and wind the string with each turn going under the last. This should give you 4 to 5 turns around the post, enough back angle to stop buzzing and popping out.
Cheers Steve.
Knackers, didn't see BigRedx's post. :blush:

Edited March 21, 2008 by steve-soar

[GreeneKing]

There's some good basic points here. I tend to forget what I see as the obvious sometimes. I normally leave 55mm beyond the centre of the post for winding, i.e. a lot more than 20mm.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='161423' date='Mar 21 2008, 02:11 PM']There's some good basic points here. I tend to forget what I see as the obvious sometimes. I normally leave 55mm beyond the centre of the post for winding, i.e. a lot more than 20mm.[/quote]Hi I had to check my post, no I did say 20 cms.
Cheers Steve.

[GreeneKing]

You did, a goodly amount indeed, apols for my error.

[Jono Bolton]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='161414' date='Mar 21 2008, 01:54 PM']Hi Jono, how have you wound the E string onto the tuner post? I restrung my Precision last night and put 4 turns of string underneath each other. This makes the string come off the post at the same angle as the D and G strings. The only string I've had trouble with has been the A string but I just put 5 turns on it at the post. I think that I'll order a Hipshot 3 string retainer, $12, worth it for even string break behind the nut.
Anyway if you have another E string to fit, if the one on it is too short, leave at least 20 cms extra string past the tuner post, put the string right down into the slot and wind the string with each turn going under the last. This should give you 4 to 5 turns around the post, enough back angle to stop buzzing and popping out.
Cheers Steve.
Knackers, didn't see BigRedx's post. :blush:[/quote]

I normally cut the string at the next tuning post, so for the E I cut it so that the string reaches the far end of the A string post if that makes sense? Some crude editing in paint:

The red line would be a continuation of the string if it was lain out flat, the 'X' being where I would cut the string. This is not my bass's headstock, by the way.
I generally get 1 or 2 turns of the string before it's tuned up. Looking at it now, it's just one. I had a bit of a mess around earlier, it seems ok just now. Should I be trying to get the string as straight as possible, or do I want it at angle? The D and G strings are a very sharp angle, but the E and more so the A seem very straight. Put simply, do I want it a gentle incline or a steep slope? I would've thought that having 4 or 5 turns of string before the string leaves the tuning post would mean the string met the post quite high up.

[BigRedX]

On a Fender type headstock one turn isn't anything like enough to get a decent break angle to stop the sting rattling behind the nut. 80-90mm gives you about two turns around the post which is fine for the D and G strings but for the E and A stings you want them as far down the post as possible - that means at least 3 turns on the E and probably 4 on the A. Try that with your next set of strings and se how you get on. Also the string should wind under itself so the more turns you put on the lower down the post it goes.

Edited March 21, 2008 by BigRedX

[Jono Bolton]

So what sort of angle should I be looking for in terms of degrees? 0 degrees is totally flat, 90 degrees is straight up. Looking at my E just now it's probably about 10-15 degrees. I would have thought that having more turns would give you less of an angle as the string leaves the tuner higher up on the post.

EDIT: Any chance someone could post a picture of their headstock to show me what the string break angle should be like? Please?

Edited March 21, 2008 by jono b

[Adrenochrome]

Sorry, that's the wrong way round. More turns around the post puts the string lower down the post and increase the angle - unless there's too much string and the winding overlaps the first turns and start to come up the post again. I generally like the string to be as low down the post as possible.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Martin at the Gallery told me that it isn't necessary to cut bass strings when putting them on. I guess this may not always work for Gotoh/Warwick style tuners with skinny posts, but for my fenders I never cut the strings; the windings stack neatly on the post and there's a good break angle on the E.

Here's my mustang wearing an uncircumcised set of Thomastic JF324 Flats.
[attachment=6732:jlpmustang.JPG]

[Jono Bolton]

How are you winding your strings JLP? The way I do it is I cut the string, put the end inside the hole inside the post and then tune. If I did it this way with a full string the windings would stack up but the string would leave the post at the top and not the bottom.

[BigRedX]

The trick is to make sure that the second turn around the post goes below the first as you wind the string tight. After that all the subsequent windings will sit below. I push the sting down hard either side of the nut as I'm winding it onto the post and that will force it to wrap below the pervious turn. Looking at JLP's photo I'd say that he has one turn to many on the E as it looks as though the final wrap is over the one before because there's no space for another below it. Ideally you want every sting to pass over the nut at the same angle as the G and D which are being held down by the string tree.

On a guitar the accepted way is to have just enough turns to hold the string tight without it slipping (which is normally 2 and a bit turns) the more excess turns you have the less stable the tuning tends to be. On the bass I find that string break angle is more important than not having too much string wrapped around the machine head. Luckily for me all but two of my basses have angled headstocks so I can get away with 80-90mm excess which gives just over 2 turns on a modern style machine head post.

[steve-soar]

Here are some pics to help you. Leave about 150mm of string to wind on.
Cheers Steve.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='161810' date='Mar 22 2008, 02:57 PM']Looking at JLP's photo I'd say that he has one turn to many on the E as it looks as though the final wrap is over the one before because there's no space for another below it. Ideally you want every sting to pass over the nut at the same angle as the G and D which are being held down by the string tree.[/quote]
It guess it does look like that in the pic, but the final wind isn't on top of another wind. As the TIs are for 32" and the bass is 30" scale, so a much thicker wound bit of the string goes about halfway around the string post.

[Jono Bolton]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='161813' date='Mar 22 2008, 03:23 PM']Here are some pics to help you. Leave about 150mm of string to wind on.
Cheers Steve.[/quote]

You're welcome

[Jono Bolton]

Ordered a new set of D'Addarios, will restring the Jazz on Monday/Tuesday and see how it goes.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='jono b' post='161837' date='Mar 22 2008, 04:28 PM']You're welcome [/quote]Huh?

[Jono Bolton]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='161898' date='Mar 22 2008, 06:32 PM']Huh?[/quote]

You said cheers after you posted those pictures. Who are you thanking and why?