Help with a problem, different tone between my strings when down tuning a 4 string

[digitalmetal]

Hi All !

Hopefully you guys with a bit of experience can help me out with this,
maybe you have come across it before?
Ive searched around and cant find any answers so i thought i would post the question here.

I play in a modern metal band and we use low tunings, i play a 4 string bass and tune down to BEAD just 5 string tuning really but omitting the lightest string,

I have a problem (and have had this same problem with all 3 of my 4 string basses)
The heaviest string ( sounds great, just how i want it, loads of low end no twangy slap funk sound,
The other 3 strings are almost polar opposite they sound twangy with loads of higher frequencies and not enough low end,
Now i know i could just EQ this out but using the EQ will obviously effect the low B too maybe i need to experiment more to eq it exactly but i think there may be something im missing,

The main bass i play right now is a Jackson - John Campbell signature model which has EMG active Pick ups , a hum-bucker at the bridge and split P Bass style at the neck, it has an EQ built into the preamp where each of the two pick ups have a tone control and what i believe to be a frequency focus sweep pot , mounted on dual concentric pots. so there should be plenty of room for tweaking.

im using 110 guage DR Black beauty strings which appear to fit the nut fine without any need for it to be filed out,

Now, yes as i said above i could try and EQ but i cant get the thought out of my head as to why 3 strings are all the same and just 1 is sounding different.

One friend had a theory that perhaps the pick ups are not design to come with a low B frequency as it is a 4 string and standard E tuning out of the factory, can this be true? or does anyone else have any other ideas?

The same this is also true of my other two 4 string basses one an 80's ESP M-IV and the other an LTD Viper 404,

When i was using my ESP as my main Bass i took it to my local bass shop (the bass Gallery in Camden London) and explained my problem to them and asked them to check the nut and file it if needed, restring it and set it up in B in case my tuning change had created this problem.
But after their setup it still exists.

I am also considering buying a multi-band compressor to compress the highs and lows independently, will this help? any recommendations on compressors?

Why not just use a 5 string you say? well i have one but i dont play it as i dont need so many strings and the neck is obviously wider and not so nice to play.

Any help anyone can offer would be very much appreciated

[stingrayPete1977]

Could you sacrifice a nut on one of your basses and fit the thickest 4 strings from a set of 5'ers? That way your BEAD would be the correct gauges etc and fatten the whole bass across all 4 strings. Meaty!

[lettsguitars]

the problem lies (i reckon) in the scale length. the longer the string length the higher the tension and fuller the sound. your b is always gonna be full sounding albeit a little flappy on a short scale (34") instrument. but all the lighter strings will always sound like a 34". you also need custom pickups for a custom sound. pups using bar magnets with more windings on the coil with give an overall flatter and fuller response than pole pieces.

[stingrayPete1977]

That's why I'm saying go for strings as if it were a five rather than down tuning to B. It's not even comparable to a standard 34" 5 as it is.

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1087419' date='Jan 12 2011, 11:34 PM']Could you sacrifice a nut on one of your basses and fit the thickest 4 strings from a set of 5'ers? That way your BEAD would be the correct gauges etc and fatten the whole bass across all 4 strings. Meaty![/quote]

Hi thanks for your help, i did do that with my LTD and it still had the same effect, as im sure you can appreciate its getting a little costly in strings alone to sort this out


[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1087429' date='Jan 12 2011, 11:41 PM']the problem lies (i reckon) in the scale length. the longer the string length the higher the tension and fuller the sound. your b is always gonna be full sounding albeit a little flappy on a short scale (34") instrument. but all the lighter strings will always sound like a 34".[/quote]

Hi Thanks for your input too!
So do you think i should get heavier 3 strings and a lighter B or am i getting a bit confused with what you are saying?

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1087429' date='Jan 12 2011, 11:41 PM']you also need custom pickups for a custom sound. pups using bar magnets with more windings on the coil with give an overall flatter and fuller response than pole pieces.[/quote]
You mean get some custom made? can you suggest anyone that makes custom actives that would drop straight in instead of the EMG's as i dont really want to have to replace the whole preamp setup.



Again thanks for your input im really at a loose end here.

[stingrayPete1977]

Them 110's would be alright down to a D I reckon, what's the balance like tuned back up to D? Also have you adjusted the pup heights? And remember you probably have enough output to lower the pup at the B string end if the D string is already too close, it's the common Stingray weak G string problem posting in a roundabout way so that may be the solution?

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm surprised you got the same issue with fatter strings? If you think about how it is now though your playing heavy stuff with an E string as thin as my A on the Ray 5 or thereabouts so it's only the fact your producing a flappy open E sound that will make it sound sort of bass like, same gauge strings longer neck would work but that's not a fix so different strings and pup adjusted to get as full and balanced a sound is your only option IMO?

Edited January 13, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[mcnach]

[quote name='digitalmetal' post='1087407' date='Jan 12 2011, 11:23 PM']Hi All !

Hopefully you guys with a bit of experience can help me out with this,
maybe you have come across it before?
Ive searched around and cant find any answers so i thought i would post the question here.

I play in a modern metal band and we use low tunings, i play a 4 string bass and tune down to BEAD just 5 string tuning really but omitting the lightest string,

I have a problem (and have had this same problem with all 3 of my 4 string basses)
The heaviest string ( sounds great, just how i want it, loads of low end no twangy slap funk sound,
The other 3 strings are almost polar opposite they sound twangy with loads of higher frequencies and not enough low end,
Now i know i could just EQ this out but using the EQ will obviously effect the low B too maybe i need to experiment more to eq it exactly but i think there may be something im missing,

The main bass i play right now is a Jackson - John Campbell signature model which has EMG active Pick ups , a hum-bucker at the bridge and split P Bass style at the neck, it has an EQ built into the preamp where each of the two pick ups have a tone control and what i believe to be a frequency focus sweep pot , mounted on dual concentric pots. so there should be plenty of room for tweaking.

im using 110 guage DR Black beauty strings which appear to fit the nut fine without any need for it to be filed out,

Now, yes as i said above i could try and EQ but i cant get the thought out of my head as to why 3 strings are all the same and just 1 is sounding different.

One friend had a theory that perhaps the pick ups are not design to come with a low B frequency as it is a 4 string and standard E tuning out of the factory, can this be true? or does anyone else have any other ideas?

The same this is also true of my other two 4 string basses one an 80's ESP M-IV and the other an LTD Viper 404,

When i was using my ESP as my main Bass i took it to my local bass shop (the bass Gallery in Camden London) and explained my problem to them and asked them to check the nut and file it if needed, restring it and set it up in B in case my tuning change had created this problem.
But after their setup it still exists.

I am also considering buying a multi-band compressor to compress the highs and lows independently, will this help? any recommendations on compressors?

Why not just use a 5 string you say? well i have one but i dont play it as i dont need so many strings and the neck is obviously wider and not so nice to play.

Any help anyone can offer would be very much appreciated[/quote]


Try a higher gauge. 125-135 for your B, and 100-105 for your E and so on... if you take a normal set and detune it so severely I'm not surprised it sounds bad.

[stingrayPete1977]

That's what I said mcnash but he says it's still the same? OLP 5 with a J East pre should sort him out bed time now anyway I'm sure the wise ones will be dodging work tomorrow with good advice!

[lettsguitars]

130 105 85 65 for a low b setup. a friend of mine makes pickups for me by hand at a very reasonable price (less than most ready mades). not active, but i'm not convinced by the need for active pups myself unless you want a loud bright sound which requires less coil = less vol. for a fuller sound you need more windings on the coil which also gives you more vol anyway. here's his email if you want to chat to someone who knows more about this stuff than I.
ben (I.M.P) [email protected]

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1087461' date='Jan 13 2011, 12:15 AM']That's what I said mcnash but he says it's still the same? OLP 5 with a J East pre should sort him out bed time now anyway I'm sure the wise ones will be dodging work tomorrow with good advice![/quote]


OLP? I hadn't thought of that but now that you mention it...

Yeah, I replied before reading all the replies... Without seeing the bass personally I can't think of anything else. A decent 5 string bass sound is not exactly rare, so I find it difficult to understand why the OP has so much trouble with a BEAD bass (bottom 4 strings of a 5-stringer) *if* he uses the usual gauges *for a 5er*.

[digitalmetal]

Thanks everyone for your help, im going to try again with the 5 string set idea as it seems to be the general consensus, I will let you know how i get on.
Cheers all !

[digitalmetal]

Just before i start messing about with my jackson (im really dreading having to file the nut for bigger strings) i thought i post a picture of one of my othe basses that has [url="https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/products/4372-rotosound_drop_zone_stainless_steel_rs_66lh_65_130_bass_strings_"]RotoSound Drop Zone Strings[/url] installed .
they are 60-80-105-130 so essentially a 5 string set without the lightest?

does this picture look correct?

[url="http://img263.imageshack.us/i/dsc09389a.jpg/"][/url]


should the fattest (playing part) of the string pass through the nut or are these sting too long and it should be the taper passing through, im presuming it should be the fattest part, but wanted to make sure.

the packet of the string say long scale and that is backed up here:
[url="http://www.rotosound.com/guide_scroll.html"]http://www.rotosound.com/guide_scroll.html[/url]

The bass is 34" scale which is saying long scale so i think i have the right strings.

Any thoughts? once again many thanks for any input.

[yorick]

The String length is Correct for the lowest string. The tapered part should only go around the winding post of the tuner.

Nige

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='yorick' post='1087754' date='Jan 13 2011, 11:24 AM']The String length is Correct for the lowest string. The tapered part should only go around the winding post of the tuner.

Nige[/quote]

Cool thanks Nige !

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1087429' date='Jan 12 2011, 11:41 PM']your b is always gonna be full sounding albeit a little flappy on a short scale (34") instrument. but all the lighter strings will always sound like a 34".[/quote]

Was just a little confused by this,

[EBS_freak]

Same here. A 34" scale doesn't equal a floppy B, there are plenty of basses around in that scale with a great sounding B - although the 35" scale is generally accepted as a method of maximising the clarity of the B.

Anyway, don't get caught up in pickups. True, less winding does bring out more of the tops and more winding will give greater output... however that will be at the expense of both bass and tops and gives a more humped mid range response, not a "flat" response. Don't think stronger magnet is better either!

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1087937' date='Jan 13 2011, 01:30 PM']Same here. A 34" scale doesn't equal a floppy B, there are plenty of basses around in that scale with a great sounding B - although the 35" scale is generally accepted as a method of maximising the clarity of the B.

Anyway, don't get caught up in pickups. True, less winding does bring out more of the tops and more winding will give greater output... however that will be at the expense of both bass and tops and gives a more humped mid range response, not a "flat" response. Don't think stronger magnet is better either![/quote]

To be honest it wansnt the B that i have a problem with, thats the one i like the sound of, its the others sounding too twangy that i dont like, but im gonna try changing to a 130 5 string set and see what happens.

Edited January 13, 2011 by digitalmetal

[charic]

Have you tried changing you playing position at all? Tone can change a LOT with a little adjustment. I've recently started tuning CGCF so I found this out the hard way. The other thing is what does it sound like standard tuned? Have you altered the setup much to allow for the drop tuning? Maybe your action height is uneven?

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='charic' post='1088242' date='Jan 13 2011, 04:19 PM']Have you tried changing you playing position at all? Tone can change a LOT with a little adjustment. I've recently started tuning CGCF so I found this out the hard way. The other thing is what does it sound like standard tuned? Have you altered the setup much to allow for the drop tuning? Maybe your action height is uneven?[/quote]

Ive tried picking (i play pick not fingers) in different areas etc but its not the solution, there is something in the hardware that is odd,
Ive put a set of the Roto Drop zones on now, didnt bother trying to tune it standard, sounds ok through headphones at home but i will only be able to tell for sure tomorrow in the rehearsal studio up loud with the band.
I put the 130 B string on without filing the nut out and it seems to be ok at the moment to try it out,
if there is a marginal improvement i will file it out and set it up properly, action and neck look/feel fine. bit il check the intonation tomorrow too.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='digitalmetal' post='1087771' date='Jan 13 2011, 11:36 AM']Was just a little confused by this,[/quote]
an upright bass has a string length of 40" bass guitars are short scale basses. 34" is SHORT. a .130 b is always gonna sound full at any length, and imho is floppy on a 34" with 38" from nut to tailpiece (34" nut to saddles). if you want those higher registers to have as full a sound as your b, you need a longer scale. so i believe anyroad.

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1088761' date='Jan 13 2011, 11:42 PM']an upright bass has a string length of 40" bass guitars are short scale basses. 34" is SHORT. a .130 b is always gonna sound full at any length, and imho is floppy on a 34" with 38" from nut to tailpiece (34" nut to saddles). if you want those higher registers to have as full a sound as your b, you need a longer scale. so i believe anyroad.[/quote]

Ok thanks, in the context of bass guitars it appears that the string manufacturers call 34" Long scale so that was what was confusing me.
the 110 guage string i had on before wasnt really floppy and quite comfortable for me but i guess thats a subjective thing anyway.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1087937' date='Jan 13 2011, 01:30 PM']Same here. A 34" scale doesn't equal a floppy B, there are plenty of basses around in that scale with a great sounding B - although the 35" scale is generally accepted as a method of maximising the clarity of the B.

Anyway, don't get caught up in pickups. True, less winding does bring out more of the tops and more winding will give greater output... however that will be at the expense of both bass and tops and gives a more humped mid range response, not a "flat" response. Don't think stronger magnet is better either![/quote]
i wasn't talking about stronger mags. just the fact that, if your using pole pieces each string is liable to maintain more of its own characteristics. whereas bar mags will give a more even output over all the strings.