Advice please..Mixer for gigging...

[markstuk]

Hi,

Some advice wanted.. At the moment we have a Mackie 8 channel mixer which means we don't have enough channels to mix the drummer properly - he's controlling his own mix from a "downstream" 6 channel mixer.

In terms of PA we're almost completely active - 2 x Mackie 1501 subs, 2 x Mackie SA1521Z's, 2 x Laney Active Wedges each driving a MAJ passive Wedge for a total of four monitor speakers. We also have a more traditional power amp/speaker backup option we can cobble together quickly. Our drummer occasionally uses a Peavey Reno 400 Combo for his foldback. This could probably be a "flat" output from the desk.

In an ideal world (please correct me if I'm going the wrong route) we need

4 x Vocal Mic inputs
1 x Stereo Keyboard input
1 x Stereo Guitar input
1 x Mono Bass input
6 x Drum input

We'd like to be able to take a different mix/level to the floor monitors than the main PA. We'd also like a few (2?) aux outputs as well.

Which makes a total of 17 inputs.. We could probably drop the Stereo inputs in favour of mono inputs if, as I suspect 17, is a bad number, or only take the snare and bass drum directly to the desk (not so keen)...

Cheers


Mark

Edited September 24, 2010 by markstuk

[Happy Jack]

Why is it a problem for the drums to be on a separate mixer, which then feeds into a single channel of the main mixer?

[markstuk]

You want him to drum, sing and control his levels? :-)

[crez5150]

To be honest I think you've gone overkill on the drum mics..... in reallity for that size of PA you'd be looking at Kick, Snare and mayby an overhead.... that would free up some channels

[markstuk]

[quote name='crez5150' post='966494' date='Sep 24 2010, 10:40 AM']To be honest I think you've gone overkill on the drum mics..... in reallity for that size of PA you'd be looking at Kick, Snare and mayby an overhead.... that would free up some channels[/quote]

Agreed.. But I wanted to lay the whole possible scenario out...

I'm pretty certain a 16 channel mixer would do us proud - any suggestions?

[Ian Savage]

You're on the right lines, but I suspect you're not running your monitor sends in the optimum fashion.

There's two types of aux send, 'pre-fader' (where moving the main fader for that channel DOESN'T affect the amount of signal going down the aux) and 'post-fader' (where moving the channel fader DOES change the amount of aux signal). In 99% of cases, you'll want a post-fader send running your reverb and effects (so that if you turn down the vocal or whatever's being fed to the reverb unit the level of the reverb comes down as well) and a pre-fader send running the monitors (so that your monitor mix doesn't change when you adjust the out-front sound).

What I'd be looking at is a desk with at least three aux sends; if you've got two powered monitors you can then run separate monitor mixes for stage left and right, or provide your drummer with a different mix from the stage front, at the same time as having a reverb feed. I'm biased as I used to work for them, but on a budget I don't think you'll get better than one of the old UK-made Studiomaster live desks - at the more basic end there's the Pro series (three aux sends, IIRC, and one format with twenty input channels) but I'm sure you'd find a Trilogy (six aux sends) without too much hunting. That's the desk I use, and I love it; mine's the 206 model with sixteen input channels, two of which have both stereo and mono inputs which you can use simultaneously and there's four stereo aux inputs with basic EQ and routing as well for reverb returns, keyboards etc.

Oh, and just to correct your channel requirements - for drums, bass, vocals, keys and guitar you're wanting 13 input channels, two of which are stereo; aux sends aren't classed as channels, they're FED by each channel.


EDIT: I notice you're in Warwickshire, if you're gigging down there after I've moved to Leamington in the next few weeks I might be able to come over and engineer one for you and show you the 'optimum' way of setting up?

Edited September 24, 2010 by Ian Savage

[xzodar]

Hi Mark

I also run with pretty much all Mackie stuff and my personal recommendation would be either a Mackie CFX16 or a CFX20.

I've been using a CFX20 for several years and it's been a great desk, very simple to use and with two monitor sends more than adequate for most small to medium gigs that we do. Anything requiring more than two monitor mixes usually means a big venue and then the SoundCraft desk comes out to play. :-)

I recently purchased a CFX16 MKII for smaller gigs where we're only running a vocal rig plus keys and the saxes and this works well.

In face there is a CFX16 for sale at a bargain price [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=98506"]here[/url] which isn't too far away from you and comes flightcased. (Given that I just spent over £100 on a flight case for the CFX16 that I bought this seems like an excellent deal).

Cheers

Pete

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='xzodar' post='966504' date='Sep 24 2010, 10:57 AM']In face there is a CFX16 for sale at a bargain price [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=98506"]here[/url] which isn't too far away from you and comes flightcased. (Given that I just spent over £100 on a flight case for the CFX16 that I bought this seems like an excellent deal).[/quote]

Actually that's a very good call; you get your effects built-in as well which is one less thing to buy, set up and learn how to use properly.

[markstuk]

Great call...

I'm meeting up with Andy on Sunday anyway, so I've PM'd him about the desk...

Cheers


Mark


[quote name='xzodar' post='966504' date='Sep 24 2010, 10:57 AM']Hi Mark

I also run with pretty much all Mackie stuff and my personal recommendation would be either a Mackie CFX16 or a CFX20.

I've been using a CFX20 for several years and it's been a great desk, very simple to use and with two monitor sends more than adequate for most small to medium gigs that we do. Anything requiring more than two monitor mixes usually means a big venue and then the SoundCraft desk comes out to play. :-)

I recently purchased a CFX16 MKII for smaller gigs where we're only running a vocal rig plus keys and the saxes and this works well.

In face there is a CFX16 for sale at a bargain price [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=98506"]here[/url] which isn't too far away from you and comes flightcased. (Given that I just spent over £100 on a flight case for the CFX16 that I bought this seems like an excellent deal).

Cheers

Pete[/quote]

[ironside1966]

I would consider the keys in mono.
Take a stereo piano sound the bass notes are louder to the left top notes louder to the right in a lot of smaller venues most people do not get a balanced stereo sound this is one of the reasons I use panning sparingly in small venues

[markstuk]

The stereo effect is a bit more subtle than bass on the left, treble on the right on the Motif.. :-)




[quote name='ironside1966' post='966577' date='Sep 24 2010, 12:21 PM']I would consider the keys in mono.
Take a stereo piano sound the bass notes are louder to the left top notes louder to the right in a lot of smaller venues most people do not get a balanced stereo sound this is one of the reasons I use panning sparingly in small venues[/quote]

[ironside1966]

True but it makes a difference when you walk around the room.

[markstuk]

Sure. But I think it's worth it given how much difference the stereo processing makes to the Leslie emulation ...

[crez5150]

I agree.... especially on Rhodes or Nord sounds.... Stereo emphasis makes a big difference.

[ironside1966]

I agree entirely with that
What percentage of the audience hears a good stereo imag?, Obviously it changers from venue to venue, but a lot of the time many of the audience ate only getting one side of the stereo image, also if the desk set to one side I like to know that what I am hearing out of one speaker is mirrored in the other.

[Ian Savage]

I'd agree with stereo being a bit of a waste of time for live work, 90% of your audience won't be in the optimum place to get the benefit of it and it'll actually make the mix LESS balanced for them...

[markstuk]

Cheers Ian,

We're going to get the Mackie - Andy is dropping it over on Sunday along with a bunch of other stuff I've bought from him..

I think our next gig is at the College Arms in Lower Quinton on the 29th October - I'll need to confirm that though....

Thanks again


Mark


[quote name='Ian Savage' post='966497' date='Sep 24 2010, 10:47 AM']You're on the right lines, but I suspect you're not running your monitor sends in the optimum fashion.

There's two types of aux send, 'pre-fader' (where moving the main fader for that channel DOESN'T affect the amount of signal going down the aux) and 'post-fader' (where moving the channel fader DOES change the amount of aux signal). In 99% of cases, you'll want a post-fader send running your reverb and effects (so that if you turn down the vocal or whatever's being fed to the reverb unit the level of the reverb comes down as well) and a pre-fader send running the monitors (so that your monitor mix doesn't change when you adjust the out-front sound).

What I'd be looking at is a desk with at least three aux sends; if you've got two powered monitors you can then run separate monitor mixes for stage left and right, or provide your drummer with a different mix from the stage front, at the same time as having a reverb feed. I'm biased as I used to work for them, but on a budget I don't think you'll get better than one of the old UK-made Studiomaster live desks - at the more basic end there's the Pro series (three aux sends, IIRC, and one format with twenty input channels) but I'm sure you'd find a Trilogy (six aux sends) without too much hunting. That's the desk I use, and I love it; mine's the 206 model with sixteen input channels, two of which have both stereo and mono inputs which you can use simultaneously and there's four stereo aux inputs with basic EQ and routing as well for reverb returns, keyboards etc.

Oh, and just to correct your channel requirements - for drums, bass, vocals, keys and guitar you're wanting 13 input channels, two of which are stereo; aux sends aren't classed as channels, they're FED by each channel.


EDIT: I notice you're in Warwickshire, if you're gigging down there after I've moved to Leamington in the next few weeks I might be able to come over and engineer one for you and show you the 'optimum' way of setting up?[/quote]

[markstuk]

Ian,

It's not really a stable stereo image per se, rather the rapidly changing effect created by the leslie/phasing simulations.. Whereever you are in the room you get it. although there are probably better positions than others... If you do fancy giving us a hand I can attempt to demonstrate this and you can tell me it's all bollocks :-)

Cheers

Mark


[quote name='Ian Savage' post='966635' date='Sep 24 2010, 01:11 PM']I'd agree with stereo being a bit of a waste of time for live work, 90% of your audience won't be in the optimum place to get the benefit of it and it'll actually make the mix LESS balanced for them...[/quote]

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='markstuk' post='966640' date='Sep 24 2010, 01:15 PM']Ian,

It's not really a stable stereo image per se, rather the rapidly changing effect created by the leslie/phasing simulations.. Whereever you are in the room you get it. although there are probably better positions than others... If you do fancy giving us a hand I can attempt to demonstrate this and you can tell me it's all bollocks :-)

Cheers

Mark[/quote]

Ah right, okay - hey, if it works for you I'm not going to tell you to change it!

[markstuk]

Ian,

No problem.. I rehearse keyboards at home through a stereo amp and 2 x Tannoy NFM-8's (plus an active Sub) mostly but do compare it mono as well....

[Adrenochrome]

We now use a 16-channel Mackie desk with 2 guitars, bass, drums and all 4 of us singing. We mike up kick, snare and Toms x 3. Plenty of the cymbals/highhats etc bleed into all the other mikes. We run everything mono

[ironside1966]

When a room is full the audience absorb a lot of the sound so one side quickly over powers the other at the higher and mid frequencies so the sound they hear is mono any way just one side of the stereo image.
One option is to make an adapter to sum the both parts in to mono although I don’t know how much difference this would make.
Another option would bring the keyboards in on the tape returns that should be ok so long as you don’t use a long multicore or if you have a spare Aux return.