Phil Starr

Again I'd kind of come at it from a different angle partly because you are really asking about the design of the drivers. For a given magnet size you can make the speaker go deeper by giving it a heavier cone. You can make it louder by making it lighter or by giving it a short voice coil which sits neatly inside the magnet gap. If you want a high sound level and lots of bass you need a long coil so that some part of the coil stays inside the magnet all the time. This is inefficient because at any one time only part of the coil is doing any useful work. 40 years ago amps were expensive and mainly low powered, you got round this by using very efficient speakers and sacrificing Xmax and deep bass. If you wanted to increase the volume you used more speakers, hence the 8x10, or a big complex cab. Cheap amps make it sensible to use less efficient speakers with long excursions making up for fewer speakers, however there is a limit. The speaker coil is still fairly fragile with thin copper wire and it doesn't cool well trapped inside the magnet so there is always an upper limit to the power a speaker can handle 450W for the 3" coil of the kappalite and 300W ish for a 2"coil. So yes, you can trade efficiency for 'better bass' with more power being the cost but only within limits.

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1405963650' post='2507016'] Hah, yes, sorry about the lengthy post I made. I hope it was relevant though - mainly in regards the choices you have to make as a designer (How low? How efficient? How big a box?) and the trade-offs which are inherent to those choices. Bill, Alex, Dave Green, Andy Lewis, Roger Baer, Duke LeJeune, etc already have worked out their own compromises with the newer drivers - it seems like to buy a cab you haven't been able to hear first you have to work out what the compromises are and what the designer intended. I have a question. Does high Xmax (with high power handling, thermal and mechanical) + sufficient power compensate for low efficiency of a woofer? I'm thinking of e.g. the 3012LF vs the 3012HO here... [/quote] That's not how I would go about choosing between these two. they are designed for entirely different uses. The HO has pretty impressive Xmax anyway and a frequwncy response at the top end that makes it usable on its own as a bass driver. The LF really has to be used with another driver and the associated crossover, and I'd crossover below 1kHz probably because it has a nasty resonance peak at about 1.8k. Then i'd be modelling the LF response in my target size of cab, as we've just been discussing anything below 50Hz could just be an embarrassment of riches in a real room, but it would depend upon how it was going to be used. WinISD or any of the other modelling software is going to tell you about what excursion you will get at what power and what the maximum output is so all these would come into it before I made a final choice. For instance we decided that we wanted something that gave us 120dB over most of the pass band and would handle 300W down to 50Hz staying within Xlim down to 40Hz. If the speaker does all those they were good enough irrespective of price and efficiency and we could look at other things like their price and top end response. The Beyma we chose wasn't in the end significantly different from the 3012HO to make it worth spending the extra, both fitted our criteria. If we were in the States where the Beyma is an expensive import and the Eminence cheaper we might have said the lightweight of the HO was worth having.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1405944887' post='2506737'] That filter compensates for the difference in response between an electric bass cab and a PA with subs. 80Hz is a bit high, 60Hz would be better. When you go to a concert with big PA and bass that's all boom and rumble with no definition, or for that matter even pitch, it's because the soundman has no clue what electric bass is supposed to sound like, nor how to use his PA kit to get it. By the same token one shouldn't go after an electric bass rig with flat response to 30Hz. If you get it you'll probably regret it. [/quote] [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1405945301' post='2506748'] Even if you use 5 or 6 string bass ? [/quote] [quote name='funkle' timestamp='1405948354' post='2506798'] I experimented recently with using recording software and EQ through monitors and good headphones to cut out everything below certain frequencies, to see if my perception of bass was significantly altered by trimming low frequencies, and if so, at what point. As others will have predicted or known already, cutting out everything with shelving EQ and a steep slope below 30Hz caused no difference to me in bass tone at all (less rumble and low freq crap though, e.g. from hitting fingers on strings). Below 40 Hz - bass still sounded good. Cut off at 50Hz - still sounded good to me. Somewhere around the upper 50s the B string got thinner if I put the shelving point there. So, the question of 'how low do you need to go?' for me is upper 50's through headphones/monitors, and a bit higher using a HPF live, depending upon the room. You wouldn't even need to go that low for a 4 string. It has helped me to consider further what I want out of a cabinet. Iharmonic of low B, and I think the cab has a gentle roll off below that point. If you plug the ports on his cabs, the -3db moves a fair bit higher. He also does a lot of work with the crossover to get a smooth on and off axis response. Of course, using the 3012LF in the slightly smaller box size (than e.g. a Fearless F112), he sacrifices sensitivity, though if you have the watts I think you can get it back to some degree through the high Xmax. Still playing with it to figure out its capabilities. It does all seem about the compromises. I'm still learning about all of them. Happy to take corrections if I have made any errors in the above Pete [/quote] And I was worried about going off topic! I was really interested in Bill's comments as he has a lot of experience in this area. for any designer there are two questions. How low does it go and what does it do when you get there? One of the big unknowns is who is going to use the cab and how are they going to use it. In general I prefer to have a reasonably flat response with a bit of deep bass and then control it with eq. and I'd like to leave the decisions to the user, The reality if you look at the graphic on my amp is that I dial in the response you'd get from a load of cheap 10's rammed into an undersized box so I'd probably play and sound the same if i bought a cheap 4x10. We looked at the response down to 30Hz in our design just to see what it would do under worse case conditions as far as excursion is concerned, we'd like to avoid people with 5 strings popping cones. We knew straight away that this speaker would give a lot more output between 40-90Hz in a bigger box but this would make it an impractical design for carrying. We still haven't decided whether to go for a 40hz tuning or a 50hz tuning and will have to do some listening tests to see what works best. the lower tuning promises better control of excursion at extreme conditions but we're not sure it will add anything to the sound, for the reasons you are giving. Anything from the speaker with a wavelength close to the room dimensions usually creates problems in a gig. In addition we hear very little of those frequencies because of the way our ears work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour .We can easily lose 20dB between 100Hz and 40Hz. the other observation is that using the prototypes in a gig I've already had problems with extreme bass off these cabs, you really do need some roll off. finally speaker design is the art of the possible. No one wants to cart a half tonne cab around and speaker manufacturers aren't going to offer a range of speakers which nobody is going to use so most of the speakers we model have very similar frequency responses in the end.

Hi Luke, probably worth a new thread but firstly churches are often designed for great bass sound in mind, those 32' organ pipes need space to work in and big spaces move all the walls back so removing reflections away from the directly radiated sound. I think this came up in an older thread once, 'how can I get the lovely sound I got in the church'. There's always been a difference between having good low end response and lots of bass. We are rubbish at hearing really deep bass and most of what we hear is higher harmonics. the first harmonic for bottom E is 83Hz so your filter leaves most of the crucial stuff in. In return you lose a lot of room resonances and your speakers working well within their comfort zone with the coil staying well inside the magnet field keeping everything else cleaner and more accurate. There are lots of successful bass speakers that don't have much deep bass. The classic Ampeg for example.

That seems very fair. I think the difference is that at least one amp has breached the gap. They are ridiculously expensive but if you are spending £1000 worth a look. If we were talking about using a 200W valve amp i don't think many people would raise an eyebrow. Because of the natural compression in valve amps you can push them harder without making horrid noises. I don't think many people will be unfamiliar with using very long throw speakers to get the same volumes as two 'normal' speakers with half the excursion. The sort of thing Barefaced have been doing for a while, amongst others. people are also very familiar with using DSP in active PA speakers to allow the PA amps and speakers to be worked much closer to their limits without audible distortion, or very little depending upon who you believe. That's what AER have done, though they haven't exactly trumpeted all the details. A solid state amp, tweaked by DSP to overload gracefully and to protect their little driver so that it can be driven harder and louder. With a long throw driver so there is plenty of deep bass but protection against 'farting out'. At a price. I'm not saying it has no distortion or that you'll get the same effect as the full Ampeg experience but they do sound good, if a little valve like, and they can be louder than the drums. I've no idea if anyone else has achieved this yet and they have their own sound just like every other combo. All i'd say is that they are a bit different and worth a listen if you are looking for a £1000 combo. I doubt there are many other 1x10's that get anywhere near being loud enough for every situation but these are different.

The tuning of the cab is independent of the drivers. If you know the volume of the original cab and the port dimensions you can work out its tuning frequency. tune the 2x10's to the same frequency and you'll be fine, or at least no worse off than you were before. As I say someone will do this for you if you need that

I think I get what you are saying but the point is these things might be physically small, but can be louder than the drums. If you drown out the drums as you seem to suggest I don't see how that helps the band. Perhaps you just don't believe me. There is also the issue of protecting your hearing, if you go much above the 100db levels you will permanently damage your hearing in a 2 hour gig or you'll have to wear plugs.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, that the bass should be able to drown out the drums? That you need to be louder than 120dB@1m. In most venues that is going to be something like 102 db at the vocal mic line, and that is just bass. The whole back line is likely to then be at around 108dB at the vocal mic. Most vocalists are going to struggle here and you aren't going to have much dynamic range as the gain before feedback is going to be a real problem. Obviously if you are playing the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury then you have a different set of problems to the average pub band but you probably won't be using much of your own gear, you'll have all the side fills and monitors you need. Even then the sound levels at the vocalists head position have been measured at around the 100dB level. I really didn't pluck these figures out of the air. If the OP wants to drown out the drums then that is up to him. We all know guitarists that drown out the rest of the band, the trick is for them to turn down not for the bassist to join in. The point I was making is that for most of us matching the drums is what we need, any more than that and there are better technical solutions. Something like the AER can match the drummer and so probably can some of the other small combos mentioned, but I haven't heard them so I can't comment. You seem a bit cross with the suggestion that you shouldn't drown out the drums.

Speaker power handling is more or less related to the voice coil dimensions. A 1.5" coil handles 100-150W 2", a coil 2-300W and a 2.5" coil 3-400W. These are AES ratings (which are soak testing with pink noise and a reasonable approximation of what they will get with heavy use). RMS ratings with a 1000Hz test tone will be similar but isn't really a sensible test. Almost no speakers will handle bottom E at anything like this power, but then this doesn't happen vry often unless you use heavy effects or bass boost. this is independent of what ever the manufacturers claims are. The claim of 1000W is probably reasonable on that basis, the rest nonsense. Behringer/Music group have clearly decided they are going to pitch at three separate price points. Honestly I think they have improved their quality control of late and others have had problems with Chinese manufacturers in this area. I have no recent experience of their current after sales support which used to be non-existent, whereas Hartke and Ashdown have been excellent. Don't buy anything on spec though, you have to listen, you are aiming for a sound you like not bragging rights over your 3000W stack. If someone else comes up and says 'I have one of these and it sounds lovely' then go have a listen. Otherwise things that sound too good to be true.......

As ever it is not possible to give a completely straight answer. It depends is the only honest response. If there is a 4x10 you love but can't transport then it is certainly an option. Similarly if you just want a fiddle/learning experience it is a low cost alternative for a bit of DIY. (ooh er) You'll need to retune the cab so running winISD might be part of the learning, but someone here will help you out if you need that. Splitting the cab won't give you exactly the same sound. Off axis the speakers interfere and effectively cut the treble so using a single 1x10 or vertically stacked 4x10 will give you a clearer sound. You could always eq the extra treble out if you like the old school thump. It is a way of getting good quality speakers at a decent price. I like the PV Black Widows and you can pick up the BXBW 15's for peanuts. I bought one of these myself and built a more back friendly cab which I used for a couple of years. It's now in the rehearsal room. If you get the PV 2x15 (for around £100) with the metal domed BW's they sound quite nice and the drivers alone would cost £300. I guess similar sums would apply to the 4x10's. That brings in the taste issue. I'm a speaker guy and the BW's are better quality than the sheffields but if you prefer the sound of the Sheffields then go for them or whatever else you like. Impedance is a little bit of a problem. You'd naturally want a 2x10 to be 4ohms, so wire the two 8 ohm speakers in parallel. if you then plug in a second speaker you'd get 2ohms which most amps won't do. The alternative is to wire the two speakers in series and get a 16ohm 2x10 and then 8ohms when using a pair. That limits the sound levels with the single 16 ohm cab. You could use the two 4ohm cabs by wiring up a series lead but these aren't commercially available. OBBM perhaps? IMO there is nothing technically wrong with a load of cheap speakers packed into a cab, the only downside is transporting the thing and dispersion. It was a great way of getting a loud sound when amplifier watts were expensive. Gigging with the 1x12 Beymas I personally roll off the bass quite severely, it's good to know it's there if I need it and the sound is nice and clean but we can get obsessed with the bottom octave from a technical point of view when in reality it is of peripheral importance to a good tight bass sound. Four new 10" drivers are going to cost £160-200, 2x12" Beymas £165 so if you pick up a 4x10 for £80 you can play without much investment. The cabs will cost something like £50ea by the time you've paid for coverings and handles etc.

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1405411909' post='2501601'] Sounds like you had the wrong DSP settings. How did you set it up? Did you use any room eq settings? Which models were you using? [/quote] ETX 12's set on the live setting, which is indicated as flat in the manual. Don't get me wrong, Id agree with JTUK that any of these would do you a good job and you could set them up to give a great sound. If I was running a Disco I'd go for the EV's but the RCF's which are the only non-DSP speakers I tried that day were the best on offer in terms of low colouration. I'm not knocking DSP which will only improve until it can outdo any human engineer but simply reporting what I heard. Good quality drive units and careful design still seem to be the critical factor.

Um don't know if this helps with the dB debate/understanding http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html My argument is that all your combo needs to do is to comfortably match the drums. If the drums aren't loud enough to fill the room then they need to be miked up and at this point everyone needs to go through the PA. The combo just becomes your stage monitor. Making the bass louder at this point just ends up swamping the vocal mics and making everything sound awful so there really is no point. If you can create a comfortable 120dB that is pretty much going to cover anything. Sorry the only AER bass amp I've listened to is the AER one.

I'm another fan of the AER amp one. I first came across it at another band's gig where a very amused bass player watched me looking for the bass amp and then when I found it looking for the DI lead. I just couldn't believe how loud and clean this little thing was. The trick is twofold, everything is absolutely top quality and there is some very well implemented electronics protecting the speaker whilst not affecting the sound. It does give the sound a valve like quality when pushed though. The AER acoustic guitar amps are setting the standard too. Their development team appears to be pretty talented.

Spent an interesting hour in PMT in Bristol this Sun trying out PA speakers. Obviously this was at a volume which would have been well below gig levels. Yamaha DSR v's Electrovoice v's RCF. I was completely underwhelmed by the Yamahas, really disappointed because I have used the old Club series for years and they've been reliable and given us a good sound despite their faults. The sound was really compressed and boxy with a lack of midrange detail. Completely failed to separate voices in the harmonies. A flatter response than my current yammies but so lacking in detail. Quite liked the EV's but they have a real American voicing, heavy bass thump and a shimmering presence peak on cymbals. Bit more detail in the vocals than the Yamahas though. Plugging in the RCFs was like opening a window though, so much better on the vocals, really distinct differences in the voices and the third voice coming through on one song you wouldn't even notice on the other speakers. DSP and active speakers are clearly the way to go. In a gig environment and without a sound engineer the speaker management alone is going to improve most bands sound and make the speakers bullet proof long term. I'm not convinced all the manufacturers are there yet though and clearly the DSP can't compensate for the quality of the drivers used. I'm going to put off going active for a while yet.

Oh should have said the obvious but it's a safety thing so here goes. If the fault occurs again at another venue then you need to get your gear checked because something is wrong. Get it PAT tested. Probably ought to do that anyway.

I'd agree with flyfisher on daisy chaining, technically either is fine. One band I watched last Fri had six strips, three along the back row and three along the line of floor wedges at the front also supplying their PA actives. They simply laid them down before they set anything else up so the sockets are in the same relative position every time they play and everything is kept tidy with no mains running across the performance area. What a great idea. I'm off to buy a couple more strips

Could be a number of things tripping the circuits. They boil down to too much current, earth leaks and a faulty component, anything from the trip itself to absolutely anything connected to the mains including anything in the same building, nothing to do with the band! Might be something like the fridge stat in the kitchens for instance. The most common reason for a trip is an earth problem. Those earth leakage breakers are designed to save you from shock and are really sensitive. The way to avoid tripping these yourselves is to plug everything into a single socket. This also protects you from shocks. The reason is that if there is anything wrong with the house wiring (and those socket testers won't pick up this fault) the earth on different sockets may have different voltages on them. Then if you connect between the backline and the PA by touching a mic stand for instance a small current will flow, 6 thousandths of an amp is enough and off goes the mains, but the lights stay on. Really you shouldn't normally overload a single socket. 13A is 3000W. It will almost certainly be connected to a ring main with a 32A trip. You'll blow the fuse in the plug first. You may have 3000W of amp but unless you are producing 100% distortion every second of the gig you won't be drawing 3000W, that's just for the peaks. Valve amps draw a little more but I doubt that your average power draw for the sound is more than 300W. the only way you will draw 3000W is if you have a lot of old fashioned lighting. Plug that into a different circuit and don't put it where you can touch it to avoid the earth leak problem. It is really important you don't trust the house wiring. Even when recently tested one loose connection can create a problem. Always plug all your gear into a single socket so that all of it is earthed to the same point, if you get a shock off any of your gear something is wrong, it isn't static. Be safe.

HI David, welcome to basschat. I'd strongly advise you against a 'practice' amp for two reasons (at least) proper practice amps are tiny things that just make a noise by and large. They help you practice but are usually only 10-30W and cost under £100 but although very good value ultimately they don't do bass very well and are ultimately unsatisfying. The big plus is that they are small so if you practice in a bedroom they don't take a lot of space. http://www.thomann.de/gb/hartke_b200_bseries_basscombo.htm A combo with 200W of power and something like a single 12 or 15" speaker or a 2x10 built in will enable you to play with a full drum kit in the rehearsal room and even most full venues as a stage amp. They will also make a much nicer noise and that encourages you to practice. (The most important reason to go this way, especially as within reason money is not the main isssue for you) http://www.thomann.de/gb/tc_electronic_bg250_115.htm Then there are the things that most guitar shops sell, usually in the 50-100W range and with a 10-12" speaker. For a bass player they are largely pointless. They aren't loud enough to play with a drummer and guitarist, even though some of them sound pretty good. They are designed for the shop not the player, they hit a price point for the person who wants something a little better than a practice amp, they look like a real bass amp and they will sound incredibly loud in the shop, crucially they don't take up much space in a shop which sells 10 guitar amps for every bass amp they sell. Ultimately they make little sense, too large and loud for normal practice and too small to be used as a practical gigging amp. http://www.thomann.de/gb/hartke_a70_aseries_basscombo.htm So for something flexible that will encourage you to play more often, sound good and get you out of the shed and playing with other people without getting left behind for volume go for a small but decent combo. It'll live with you for at least a couple of years until you are experienced enough to have ideas of your own about your ideal amp.

Don't worry about the impedance of the tweeter, Piezos work in an entirely different way and they have a very high impedance which falls with frequency. They usually have a very high value resistor in series so they make very little impact on the overall impedance. they don't need a crossover and I suspect the crossover here is simply to filter the high frequencies from going to the main driver. Hence the effect when you remove it from the circuit. I suspect this mod is a very good call.

Careful here or you'll end up like a guitard, Having to play at 11 to get your tone Seriously the band sound has to come before the bass sound so try miking the cab or running a DI box off the speaker lead. bands always sound better with low on-stge sound to my ears. The other thing you get when playing loud on stage is lots of feedback/resonance in your strings and this affects your sustain, and the way hammers, pulls and slides sound (probably ought to concede the same to our thin stringed friends here) and this affects the whole way you play. You could try a little compression/extra compression to get this effect too. Try and resist the temptation to go too loud.

That's the weight of one cab! we didn't set out to design a lightweight either. X max is rated more conservatively than the Eminence speakers. The 3012LF isn't really suitable as a single driver for bass as it is designed as a woofer in a two way speaker and has no top end. The 3012HO is the one we considered. The Beyma is less than half the price in the UK. At the moment US speakers are fairly pricey over here. We felt the 3012HO didn't offer any significant advantage over the beyma except for a midrange hump which we thought would sound nice. We'll give details of alternate drivers in the final design. The Beta 12A-2 looks quite promising. Remember we set out to create a 'simple to build' design and i may have said something along the lines of more VW Golf than Lamborghini.

If you really want to rationalise/save carrying stuff I'd think about actives. They are getting better all the time and you'll get great reliability and functionality. You'll get £200 for the IPR1600, less if its the old heavy Peavey amp. (I'm looking for a third IPR1600 if you do sell) RCF, Mackie (not the Thumps) EV, JBL, Wharfedale, HK all worth a look at/listen to. Even the better Behringers are going to sound better than your Peavey but I'd look at other brands. Second Hand you should be able to pick up some bargains if you want passive speakers, everyone is updating their passives to actives because they make life a lot easier for anyone other than techno nerds like me.

The beyma SM212's

OK the latest update. The prototype speakers are now braced with a pair of braces across opposite panels andf rom the rear panel to the cross braces as there isn't anywhere sensible to fix them on the baffle. The cross braces are fixed to vane bracing which also stiffens up each panel. I've inserted some polyester damping between the rear of the speaker and the rear panel. All this adds a couple of Kg to the cabs. The speakers have had a run out at their first gig. Also the first gig with the new band [url="https://www.facebook.com/pages/ReD-band-uk/246798508841316?ref_type=bookmark."]https://www.facebook..._type=bookmark.[/url] Here's what I found. They got me into trouble in the first set. My preference is to keep bass off the stage and DI through the PA but my band like a very forward bass in the mix and lots of bass on stage. That's a silly thing to say to a bassist with a new rig! Initial balance out front is excellent, on stage bass was just far too loud. At the break my drummer complained he couldn't hear his own snare! I think I may have cured him of constantly asking for more bass all the time . Anyway as far as the review goes a pair of these don't lack for volume. One would have easily coped, This was in a 250 people sized space with high ceilings not huge but bigger than most pubs or clubs. If I had to summarise the sound in a word I'd settle on airy. The bass seems limitless (with my 4string Precision, American Deluxe). I know there is a 1dB midbass peak from the WinISD plot but it isn't really noticeable. I always roll the bass of quite steeply at 30Hz but the general feel of the bass is that it is limitless, no real changes as you run down the E string and no compression as you turn up the volume. That 7mm Xmax gives you plenty of reserves at very high sound levels and the frequency response is essentially pretty much flat. These aren't going to give you the 'punch' of an old school 2x15 or 8x10 without some serious signal processing but will give loud undistorted bass. Like I say, they shift a lot of air. The top end is equally airy, The speakers claim a flat response up to 6kHz (-10dB) with only a minor break-up peak at 2kHz and that's pretty much what I heard. It's a bit like the sound you get DI'ing into the PA but rolled off at the top end so you don't get all the noise of fingers on strings, yeah I know, poor technique. That's the point though, without the usual midrange resonance and a bit of extra top end (without the extreme top of a horn) these are quite revealing of what you put in. So pretty predictable really. These are fairly capable speakers for the price with a good clean bass with no bass compression at normal volumes and no real sonic nasties. Not the choice if you want a speaker with a strong character but a good modern voiced unit. One is enough for most situations a pair are seriously impressive. 14.5kg, 350W thermal, 98dB/W and about £150 for a home build including fittings and coverings. You could build one from this thread but I'll do a step to step guide once we finalise on a few details and build the final design. Cheap and cheerful 2x10 to come.

plug the guitar into the tuner and then the tuner into the same input you normally use on your amp. When you switch the tuner off it is true bypass, ie it just connects the input straight through and does nothing to the signal Almost anything will be better than the Peaveys. They never did sort out their horn driver which is a shame as the bass drivers are generally good. What's your budget and what will you use them for?