Phil Starr

Glad I wasn't the only one knocked out by the bassist. Fab tone too.

Hi again Leonard, just to say I'd definitely go with an active speaker nowadays. The advantages are threefold at least, the amps match the speakers and have computers on board (DSP) which will make sure the speakers can't be overloaded no matter what the operator does, a big factor in community use where any idiot can end up at the controls. Having active systems mean fewer leads to confuse people not used to pro PA and at the end of the day they are quick to knock down and everyone gets home that little bit quicker. Going for the bigger RCF speakers means you won't need bass bins, again more appropriate for use by a wide range of potentially inexperienced users. I like the Yamaha's and the EV's too and JBL do good active speakers as well but I've done a comparative test and the RCF's and QSC's someone mentioned are just a little better at the moment. I'd happily use the Yamaha's or EV's if I couldn't quite stretch to the RCF's. Yamaha reliability is legendary and I've used the old passive stuff for years. With the Behringer mixers you suggest they are excellent, but again think about who would have to operate them. Will they be able to navigate the menu systems and take advantage of all the extra facilities if they are unfamiliar with this sort of electronics? A fairly simple analogue mixer is a bit more intuitive even if the simplicity is a bit limiting. Not a complete no no but worth thinking about.

I've been reading this for a while but haven't commented because almost all of the things I'd have said are on the other 12" threads running at the moment, also I think this is more a 'what to buy next thread' than a technical one. There are plenty of people out there with more expertise than me in that area. It seems to me that you are happy with your sound but want just a touch more of it? If so then why not just get a second matching 2x10 for the bigger venues? A 2x10 or a 112 should be enough for anything if you can genuinely put everything through the PA. keeping your own volume down on stage stops the vocal mics picking up too much backline and really cleans up the band's sound. If you can hear yourself with your current set up you have enough and it is better practice to let the PA do the heavy lifting. You can hear yourself now so for this band the set up you have is 'enough'. As to the technical issues. There's nothing special about that TC so the excursion of the speakers is going to limit ultimate bass output, but I suspect from your description of 'distasteful frequencies' that the piezo tweeter may be the problem. If you overload that it is going to be distasteful as it will if you run the amp into distortion at the peaks. As a temporary measure turn it off or down if you can, rather than trying to eq the distortion out. I really don't think the wireless connection has anything to do with it (unless your batteries were flat), my very run of the mill Line 6 G30 actually gives a cleaner sound than a long lead.

Hi Leonard, I have no experience of that particular set up, so this is all from general principles, but with no-one else yet commenting I hope this might help until someone with more knowledge comes along. There are some advantages in this sort of system, easy set up being one which may suit your needs. The other is control of dispersion that the line source offers. Really useful in an echoey building with lots of hard surfaces. I also like moving the crossover point out of the mid-range, which I think improves vocal sound. The downsides are a lack of volume and the expense. For the cost of a single speaker system like these you could afford four reasonable quality conventional speakers or buy a pair of something market leading and have some change for a decent mixer and a set of mics. I'd agree with Mike on the volume issue too. They are advertising 121dB continuous and 129dB peak. The 121dB figure is probably more honest than many ad claims but how they justify the 8dB extra peak is a bit odd. 6dB peaks are the normal permissible manufacturers guff. 121dB won't be enough for a metal band in a 700 seat venue but would probably do the 150seat venue if you buy a pair. That's £3,900 though! With that sort of budget I'd be looking at the RCF ART735, a pair of these will do everything you need in all probability. I don't think you'd need subs at all so just two boxes and no more difficult to set up than the LD's.

Thanks Geoff, I have visitors this w/e. I'll have a look on Mon.

I can do a rough calculation based on that but I need the exact width and height of the port as well as the length to get it right. Check for anything loose whist you are looking

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1496255984' post='3310022'] If I pluck a low B and let it ring, I hear it 'fluttering'. The original driver was farting out badly at any decent volume (EQ flat) so I thought I'd try a Beyma in it. Big improvement but, as I said, there's still this 'flutter' that to my uneducated ear sounds like the air pushing & pulling through the ports. (Chuffing?) I was wondering if an exta round port at the back would improve matters? What measurements do you need, Phil? G. [/quote] I want to calculate the tuning frequency of the cab, I have the dimensions of the cab from Ashdown's ads but I need to know how long the port is. It could be chuffing or it could be something loose in the cab. It's very hard to be certain without hearing the cab. It might be worth a quick look to check if any stuffing in the cab is loose or there is anything moving around near the port, like the cabinet covering. It's an outside chance but worth a check. The Beyma will probably shift more air than the original driver so chuffing is certainly a possibility. You can't just add a port, that will completely change the tuning of the cab. You'd need to considerably modify the cab if you need a bigger port, possible but it might be easier to build a new cab, and cheaper if you sell on the Ashdown which will lose most of it's value if no longer original. Low B at full power is always going to be a challenge for a single 12" speaker but let me have the depth of the port and i'll have a think.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1496144686' post='3309067'] I don't know about Linden, but American Basswood is too lightweight for speaker cabinets. It's considered a junk wood, not suitable for construction or furniture. It doesn't even burn well. [/quote] It's just not something we see over here as a plywood so I've no experience of it. My son lives in Japan and when we visit I grab the chance to look at Japanese joinery. I don't recognise many of the timbers and like everything in Japan they try to use Japanese materials. The ply I've seen is fantastically good quality but was being used for finish work so you'd expect that. DIYJapan you need to just chat with your timber merchant about it's suitability, you don't get to do anything in Japan without a hell of a lot of training so they are likely to be knowledgeable about timber even if not speaker cabs.

[quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1496179548' post='3309432'] Is it the volume of the port that matters? For example, if corner triangular prisms were used, should the volume of the prism be the same as the volume of the cylinder that makes a circular tube port? [/quote] Yeah, as Beer of the Bass says you need to calculate the ports for each cab and tuning but in a practical sense the length of the port depends upon it's cross sectional area so if the corner ports are the same area as the round ones their length will be the same. There's a slight complication because the termination of the port has a different impedance against the walls of the cab so there will be a small end correction to apply. In practice the cab would work OK but you probably wouldn't hit the tuning exactly.

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1496183854' post='3309468'] One thing (possibly the only thing) I remember from my Physics degree is that at the same pressure doubling the diameter of a pipe will increase the flow by a factor of 16, not the 4 times that the actual area might suggest. So, although 4 ports of diameter X will have have the same area as a single port of diameter 2X, the flow through the single large port would would 16 times that of a single port at X, or 4 times the flow of 4 ports of the same total area. [/quote] I have a distant memory of studying fluid dynamics 40 years ago and some 'interesting' maths. It should have been obvious but it's easy to get complacent when using computer models . I guess that narrow ports are more resistive and you get turbulence at lower port velocities.

Hi Geoff, I had a quick look at the Ashdown and I don't see why it wouldn't sound at least OK with the Beyma. It looks to be a similar sized cab to ours and I'm guessing tuned within the ranges we tried. If you could measure the depth of the port I could look at it properly for you. What exactly do you mean by "it isn't breathing smoothly at low frequencies"?

If you are doing covers I suspect it's about not knowing the song as much as being rhythm blind. There's a huge difference between being not being able to do something and never being able to do it. The difference is practice I don't think singing is as easy as it looks for most of us. I struggle to play bass and sing at the same time, especially when the chord changes don't line up with the sung line. Singers tend to be over confident, they can sing along with the original so they reckon they can do it to order. By now I'm imagining their confidence is shattered as it has been a topic of debate which probably doesn't help. With three weeks to go I'd be thinking of cancelling TBH, but you want practical suggestions. They have to listen to the songs over and over again at every available opportunity. Get another band member to cue them in either by counting them in or by playing a cue or even giving them a nod or a wink. Can they come in on time with a Karaoke track? If you can get backing tracks for your songs it gives them something solid to practice with. Sit down with them one to one and go through the problematic songs listening to the originals, pick out what the music does just before they come in . Get them to listen out for that cue and practice that entrance only. 3 weeks isn't much time, all any of you can do at this stage is to try your best (who booked in a gig before you were ready?) once it is over your singist needs to decide if they want to spend the hours working on each song to bring them up to scratch. If not it might be time to move on.

Whilst I don't know about basswood as a material for ply I would imagine it would be OK, a whole variety of plywoods are available here and often the only part of the plywood that is the named species are the face plies. One supplier over here offers a generic 'hardwood' ply which I prefer to birch ply anyway. Given the quality of Japan's carpentry and the use of a lot of indigenous semi-tropical timbers I wouldn't be surprised if it is very decent quality. We designed the cabs so you could build two out of an eight by four sheet so 18sq ft should be plenty.

surprised no-one has mentioned the biggest difference between the Gibson and the Epi's. Gibsons are really light basses. The Epi's are beasts. I have to say mine created quite a stir at every gig I took it to, just the look of it really, and I loved the sound it made, the sustain and the super fast narrow neck. In the end the neck dive and the twist spoiled it for me. I watched Martin Turner (Wishbone Ash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUolWNHxRiM ) last Friday and like most of the T-bird players he plays mainly with a pick and the bass on his thigh with his picking arm resting against the bass. I play finger style only and without that restraining arm they dive like crazy. I sold the Gibson, it was a waste to have a lovely bass unplayed, then I missed it and a Japanese T-bird came up, a Burny by Fernandes. It has the same light weight and fast neck, the sound is great but without that snarl the Gibson has when you dig in. If the OP is thinking about a purchase try the Epi and Gibson next to each other, it's a completely different experience. Personally I'd wait and see what Epiphone bring out next if a new model is due soon.

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1495907223' post='3307512'] Hope not to derail..... I have a Beyma 212 - but am totally hopeless with tools. Anyone building these cabs for money? G. [/quote] It isn't too difficult to build these if you get the panels cut to size for you. If you can use a screwdriver the Mk1 pretty much assembles itself. B&Q will usually cut the panels and a smaller timber merchant will usually help. Some might even offer to cut the holes in the baffle for you.

You'll find designing cabs is a bit like wrestling a balloon. You force one problem into place and something pops out somewhere else. We've very much found that to be the case with designing the Basschat 12. The main thing I was trying to achieve in the Mk1 was a decent speaker that would be easy to build. If you follow the original thread you'll see I built both a tube ported box and one with a wooden slot port. I plumped for the tube ports because of the simplicity of the build and the ready availability in Europe of black downpipe of the right diameter. We ended up with four to keep the port noises down. The slot port version had a resonance when I dropped it, I couldn't leave it alone though and when I went back found it was down to a reflection off the port itself. I damped it down with some judicious stuffing and it could have been designed out with a taller narrower cab. Having built both I thought the tube port tube design was easier to make for someone with limited tools and woodworking experience. Since then working on the Mk2 we've found that a single port gives a lot less port noise than a group of four with the same cross sectional area. I'm not keen on four corner ports for that reason, but it does help stiffen the cab. Balloon wrestling again. My conclusion? I wouldn't worry too much about the ports. If you are a confident woodworker forming them out of wooden slots is fine. The four ports in the Mk1 have never made any audible noises at a gig, even when pushed hard, most/many manufacturers of bass cabs make slot ported designs and there are successful designs out there with corner ports.

The 3012HO is a bit wasted in a box that size. 35-40l is probably better. It will work in the Basschat 12 and you can change the shape to make it taller so long as you stick with the overall volume and the port dimensions. You could use the dimensions of the Mk 2 if you want and leave out the horn, Stevie spent some time working on the bracing and you could simply copy his. The Eminence Beta 12A-2 will work well in this cab. I can imagine getting hold of the Beyma we used would be nigh on impossible in Japan. My son works in Tokyo If you want help with the design just keep posting questions here.

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1495806826' post='3306773'] Interesting - I bought myself an AKG D5 and was ribbed by my bandmates for not buying an SM58. [/quote]The last laugh is yours I think. I inadvertently did an A to B test of these two when mixing for a friend. Her SM58 cut out and I swapped mid song with my AKG. The clarity and amount of detail that suddenly appeared was stunning. Not surprising really, the SM58 dates back to 1962 it was great in its time and has been a really reliable performer. Technology and materials science has moved on since then and Shure only make the SM58 because people won't let go. The Beta 58 is their modern offering and is way better than the old SM.

Hi Steve, yes mainly the D5's, feedback rejection is pretty good with them anyway. See you are down at the Marine tonight, I might make it down there if I can escape.

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1495788741' post='3306540'] Our side fills are Alto TX10s and they do the job perfectly. The drummer's one is, indeed, on a short speaker stand so he and I can hear the vocals etc. Works brilliantly. [/quote] Thanks Steve it's encouraging me to give it a go. Do you get any feedback problems?

[quote name='AdamWoodBass' timestamp='1495783767' post='3306485'] Only time I've used side fills is many years ago in an originals rock band. The frontman ran a really high end PA hire company so we were able to get on the bill for a lot of festivals and outdoor gigs. I'd say they are very useful because they fill the stage and you really get a sense of atmosphere to the gig, we also had wedges at the front but that was pretty much just for vocals. For the band it feels very natural and seems to add a little something to the gig. For the guy doing the front of house mix it's a nightmare from what I understand because they have to ensure the side fills don't bleed into the mix for the FoH system. Typically it's really useful outdoors where accoustics of a room aren't a factor but in a theater or something it can be a pain. [/quote] I grew up with the idea of sidefills bleeding into mic's being a problem, but that was in the days of SM58 mics and earlier. The dead spot for those cardioids is looking along the mic straight at the monitor. The AKG's and Sennheisers I use now are super cardioids where the dead spot is offset at about 135 degrees but they are pretty dead from the sides. I've a little personal vocal monitor for just my vocals and it works much better from the side than looking down the barrel. Much less feedback and somehow easier to pick out your voice when it comes from that direction. That's all got me thinking. Good to hear what you say about atmosphere too.

We play in a lot of cramped spaces in pubs with limited floor space and often poor acoustics. Band politics and funds won't allow in ears. We've also had a series of incidents where punters trip over floor monitors and catapult themselves into the band. Most of our mics are supercardioid rather than cardioid so monitors need to be to one side rather than straight ahead, so I'm thinking that a couple of small PA speakers at ear height would take up less space and potentially be clearer than our current line of floor monitors. Has anyone tried this?

Looks like you tried all the right things. If it's all been working OK through the Aux out then it's unlikely to be the speaker end so you are left with the mixer. Could be a connection problem or I suppose a software glitch. You did switch it off and on again! I don't know the Soundcraft, is it possible there's some way of muting the output?

In most cases 24dB/octave is going to be much better if what you want to do is clean out the crap without affecting your sound. Happy to give you the technical reasons if you want.

The most likely explanation is the leads, though it could be a socket. If there is a poor joint or an invisible break in the cable itself then just wiggling something can re-make the connection. If you've connected it up at home you'll have done a lot of wiggling and maybe swapped leads around. Intermittent faults are a bugger to find. Always carry some masking tape with you to gigs and you can mark the leads in any channel that fails, then you can investigate when you get home. There's also nothing to lose by squirting some switch cleaner into the sockets. Sensibly you could replace all the leads and eliminate them as suspects. Good luck