funkle

You legend! I'll update the original 'measurements' post with this info.

Wow @Andyjr1515 that thread was one heck of a read. Amazing work. I know who someone else who can help me make the multi-laminate neck now if/when I get to that stage!

A lot of my assumptions about necks and fretboard and how they affect tone rests on two things. One, I really have no idea of neck through builds differ to bolt on in terms of impact on sound. I just have not played enough neck throughs to form a judgement. Roger Sadowsky says of neck throughs that the tone comes less from the neck and more from the body in that case when compared to bolt ons. I assume he’s right. @Kiwi Two, I really have no experience that I can decently recall of using basses without maple necks. So using wenge as the main neck wood, or mahogany, I honestly am not sure how that influences the tone over using maple, or how those neck woods interact with different fretboard woods. I don’t have enough experience to comment on it that well. I assume it’s pretty important, but just do not know. @TrevorRI agree that generalisations about body and facing wood are difficult given the differences between cuts, where they come from on the tree, etc. I also agree that when Ian and Pete built basses, using a largely consistent formula would allow them to hear the likely modest differences between builds easily, because the main change they would make between builds was the facings. I stand by my original assumption about the overall relative importance of body woods and facings, though. My main logic remains that there is a recognisable ‘Wal sound’ even when the body is made of what should be really quite different sounding woods (ash vs. mahogany, never even mind the facings) and when there is only a single pickup used even with no EQ installed. The ‘Wal sound’ must therefore largely come from the pickups.

I bought a Squier CV Jazz in Olympic White in 2009 for £250 new. I still have it. I very much doubt it would fetch more than £250 now. Which is fine, I’ve modded it incessantly and I have spent probably a thousand hours on it when I was at music school. It has served its need well. IMO there are better ways to speculate with your money. I don’t think the CV’s will appreciate the way the JV’s did. The supply of CV’s is considerably higher.

I agree @owen. But we must be clear, this is effectively saying that electronics make up the majority of the sound of an instrument. Which I think is true, though neck/fretboard construction and woods would be right up there with pickups/preamp for me. Not everyone will agree though. We must be careful, I don’t want this thread to descend into the classic debates of ‘does neck/fretboard wood matter’ and ‘does body wood matter’. As I’ve said before, for the purposes of this thread, my answers for both of those questions are: 1. Yes, quite a bit (particularly in the high end as @Kiwihas pointed out) 2. Only a very small amount (which I know e.g. @Kiwi would disagree with) Assuming I am right, which I recognise is a large assumption, if both basses have maple necks and maple fretboards, and the same pickups, but differ in the body wood and preamp, I would hope to still have some kind of meaningful comparison. But I know the ideal comparison is still to use the same test bed bass for both preamps.

So I had a really interesting day. Chris McIntyre has already closed up shop for Christmas. So I have to wait a little before I can continue this experiment. However, two things came together very serendipitously. Firstly, the chap making the pickups has a second set of them on the way to me. He felt there was an issue with the base plate (fairly minor, I would have said), but he wanted to sort it, so he wound an entirely new set and sent them out to me, out of his own pocket. This is pretty legendary customer service. Secondly, Nuno at Lusithand reached out to me after he caught this thread, and offered to send me a Double NFP to try out, and send back if I preferred the ACG. I took him up on the offer. The preamps he makes look great and sound good from what I've heard on Youtube; I scored the ACG first and so went with it, but now have the chance to compare both directly. This has all got me thinking I might be able to find a second bass to mod with the second set of the same pickups and use the Double NFP in that. Then I could conveniently compare the two set-ups reasonably directly. How cool would that be? The problem is going to be other variables changing between the builds, if I do decide to do it. I'd be changing more than one thing at a time, so the best I would be able to say is 'this particular build sounds like this'. I think I'm going to do it anyway, though. I think it would be great fun. I have found after further examination that a secondhand Cort would likely fit the bill very well, if I can lay my hands on one. The GB74JJ would be ideal, as it has good hardware, a battery box and control cavity routed already, will be built well, and has decent woods (ash body/maple neck + maple FB). Plus new pickup routes in the correct Wal locations would I think obliterate the existing ones and give a reasonably good cosmetic effect without too much work. If I went the route of getting another Precision body and modding it, I'd probably have to wait a bit before I could collect all the bits I want secondhand (neck, bridge, tuners) to make it as economic as a secondhand Cort. I really do need to have a good think about how to test this all out well for recording purposes.

You’re right @Kiwi - I’m pretty sure Nuno has a set of these.

Ok, the pickups arrived. Finally! Very nice. The packing surprised me as this chap is just starting out, but he has some nicely branded packing already, lol. And here’s what they look like. Pretty cool looking pickups, right? The wiring instructions should come in handy as well. They come with a choice of insert colours. I chose black. Silver, gold, black, bamboo, and others I cannot recall currently, I think. My only concern of not having completely flat/flush pickup covers is getting gunk in the design in the top and finding it difficult to clean them out. Wait and see I guess! So now I need to drop these off with Chris. Not sure if there’s time to do that and get the test bass back before Christmas, sadly. Will go as fast as I can.

Nice. My secondhand one still works, so it’s staying until it dies, lol

Finally. Customs is pretty slow at the moment. I know the pickups hit the UK around Dec 7th.

I tried one of these out in Guitar Gutar in Edinburgh. The PJ version. So much to love about it. It was lightweight. It sounded great. The neck profile was perfect. I realised morado was a superb sounding fretboard wood. It balanced well on the lap. The hardware felt premium. The negatives were noticeable for me though. The headstock logo is reprehensible. That poorly designed set of logos has no business on that headstock, looks like it was drawn by a primary school student. The hum out of the rear pickup was bad in the shop, and would really annoy me in the studio. Live, possibly manageable. I would have to cough up for the bridge humbucker, which should really come standard on a PJ. The lack of the VTC was not a deal breaker, but if it’s a Sadowsky, well, it’s part of the sound of a Sadowsky, so, it was a bit of a miss there. Would not have been a lot extra to add that, and it’s annoying to have to source that and retro fit it. For my purposes it would need a few hundred more of upgrades. And I’d probably avoid it anyway because of the headstock. It’s just awful. I’d maybe think about getting one secondhand, if I could do something about the decal on the headstock, but I would not buy new. It has sparked my interest in the next line up though - the German-made MetroLine fixes the niggles I would have with these instruments. I might look for a PJ MetroLine secondhand.

Sounds about right to me. I’ll DI it for recordings to share here.

I certainly hope so, it’s not a cheap experiment…but it will hopefully help out others. Have been thinking about how to try and do recordings and video of all the resulting configurations without it taking forever or killing the listeners with boredom. Since it’s going to have series/parallel/single row coil switching and have an EQ that I am not terribly familiar with which provides a huge amount of tweakability, it’s going to be a challenge. Then there’s the question of recording through DI or going through a cabinet for a little more of the ‘room feel’. I’ll probably work up some short riffs in various styles and tweak slowly, recording as I go.

Lol. Fair point. Maybe I posted in the wrong place….happy for a mod to move if they think it more appropriate in Build Diaries…

Updated the 'test bed' post. Enjoy! And for info, there is a builder out there making Wal clones, if people want an actual clone. He winds his own pickups, uses the Lusithand preamps, and makes his necks a little bit more conventionally shaped than the 'V' shape. His prices seem to start around $2k and go upwards depending on the options. I guess if you really want something that looks like the real deal, then this would be up your street. It's not for me though. https://www.facebook.com/Octave-basses-115083543684715/

I am, by nature, unwilling to pay top whack for the sound I want. I don’t like the nut width on standard 4 string Stingrays either. So I made my own ‘Classic Stingray’ from an SBMM Ray4, the lowest bass from the range. I’m delighted with it. About £600 all in.

Ha!! I stand corrected. Good to know I’m not the only one. That Noll semi para 3 band was a serious contender for a bit for this build. It’s a really good idea. I thought of it like the East Uni Pre, but a bit easier to access the controls to adjust where each EQ band ‘sits’. And the Lusithand setup undoubtedly looks more user friendly than the ACG setup for live purposes. But I have some thoughts about how to try and approach that issue, once I actually get the test bed built and use it for a while.

The test bed Ok, sorry for the delay. I went around the houses on this one. At first I had a whole custom build planned out. But I couldn't quite face the money involved for what was going to be a grand experiment. Maruszczyk would have been my choice of 'inexpensive custom' here, and Adrian was extremely accommodating in his emails. They would do whatever I asked without an issue, and for a reasonable price. But it was still around the £2k ish mark, just could not stomach it. Perhaps once I have actually figured out what works and what does not. Then, in talking to my friendly Talkbasser on a similar quest for a Wal-alike, and who really was quite instrumental in helping me shape my thinking, I gradually worked out that there were a lot of basses out there that could provide an excellent framework for modding. So I sat down to try and work out roughly where Wal Mark 1 pickups would sit on different instruments. Powerpoint to the rescue.... (The orange lines represent where the coils of the Mark 1 sit. The blue lines are at the nut, fret 12, fret 19, and fret 21, as well as the G string saddle at the bridge.) It was in drawing this up that I realised that the lenses used to take bass photos must have their own curvature/distortion that affects scaling the closer you get to the edges, as I could not always get everything to line up the way it ought. Still it served reasonably as a guide. I haven't shown everything here that was suitable, but the Yamaha TRBX504 was a standout for having a maple/mahogany multi-laminate neck, a mahogany body, rosewood fretboard, decent hardware, and a reliable build quality. The SBMM Ray4 would be decent enough but the pickguard would need completely redesigned. The Cort B4 Element and Cort B4 AS RM both presented incredible value for money, with hardware punching above the price point and multi-laminate necks also. Strangely enough, the Kramer D1 bass (not shown) would also be an excellent choice, with a mahogany body, ebony fretboard, and decent hardware. Too large a nut width for me though. However. All of these solutions left me with a problem, which was getting the routing done and then figuring out how to make it look nice after. And in chewing it over, I realised the only bass in the row up there that would allow me to route out holes for 2 Musicman pickups and still look ok afterwards (just by getting a new pickguard) was a Precision. Which brought me back full circle to @Spoombung's original 'Wal-cision'. I then realised I still had a Precision body I had routed for a dual P setup sitting in the other room that I was selling. A quick check of the existing rear rout and a quick measure told me that I could stick a Musicman pickup in there no problem and it's in the right spot for the Wal rear pickup. All I would need to do would be is to create a new surround for the rear pickup and route out a space for the neck pickup, and the neck pickup would fit within the outlines of the existing pickguard. A tidy solution. So. Given the ubiquity of Fender parts, bridges, suitable necks, etc, and the fact I have a suitable body sitting here for free, the test bed will be an alder Precision. Not my first choice, but it will serve. As for the neck. Whilst I want to make a custom multi-laminate one, for now, I just need something that fits and is a known quantity tonally. So I bought a secondhand Fender Jazz neck from Facebook marketplace for £100 and stuck it on - this one, except more 'used', lol: Secondhand tuners were sourced on the marketplace here and will be with me shortly. Hipshot HB7s that should fit no problem. I dropped off the body and neck today with Chris McIntyre (formerly of Sei basses), who I am blessed to have as my local luthier. He and I have known each other for a decade, and he is well used to my experimental nature. So he's going to help me out with the routing of the neck pickup, a rear electronics cavity, battery box, side jack hole, pickup switches, and a temporary mount for the electronics to sit on. If things go well, I'll get him to sort out a custom pickguard as well, but for now, I'm just looking to do the minimum to make it a functional test bed. I might ask @Dad3353 to do a custom 3D printed rear pickup surround too, if things go well. If I can get an alder-bodied, maple-fretboarded, non-laminated necked Fender to sound anywhere like a Wal, then it will be pretty remarkable. I guess this really is the test of how much of the sound is in the electronics, because if I was trying to genuinely clone a Wal, this is definitely not the way to go about it. 😂

So. After rather too many words, we have a set of multicoils coming to me from a maker brand new on the scene which are wound like those in the 'Pro series', and for which I will install switches to allow series/parallel operation (and perhaps single rows of coils, wait and see), and an ACG EQ-01 for the preamp. I asked the maker to send me the pickups they had in Musicman shells, because if all else fails I can easily fit other types of pickups in MM shells, and frankly (heresy, I know), the Wal 4 string pickups and the huge surrounds are just plain ugly to me. Sorry, not sorry 😄 It's a bit of a strange and hybrid build in some ways when considering the different Wal series. The pickups will be wired like those in the Pro series, but the preamp most similar to those in the Custom series. I hope it will work out; I think it will. You can see why I am calling it the Wal-ish....

The preamp Right, here we go. Although the 'Pro' series had what might be considered a more conventional preamp, I really cannot see making a Wal-alike without having a 'filter based' preamp. Bit of a misnomer as all preamps filter the sound, but it's the convention we have when talking about these instruments, so I'll stick to it. That decision made, this really only leaves a few choices. 1. @Passinwind has an open source hybrid filter pre which people can build. I lack the skills to do so, so have not. https://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-passinwind-open-source-preamp.1259692/ 2. Lusithand Devices (https://www.facebook.com/Lusithand/) have a filter based preamp to accommodate conventional one pickup or two pickup setups. These are the Single or Dual NFP preamps. They also make the 'Special' version of these, which is the only commercially available preamp I know of which can do the buffering necessary to accommodate 'New Way' or 'humbucker set per single string' wiring, with all of the resulting outputs. The controls are straightforward and even simpler than a typical Wal and it looks well made. If I decide to go with pickups that match the Mark 2/3 rather than the Pro, I would buy one of these, the 'Dual Special NFP'. However I ended up with... 3. AC Guitars - the venerable ACG EQ01. https://www.acguitars.co.uk/acg-eq01-filter-pre-amp/. This is well known, has been through several iterations (most recently reducing the range of frequencies that can be selected, I think), is made by John East, and has a lot of flexibility built into it, perhaps too much. Being able to adjust the amount of resonant frequency dialled in as well as the frequency the LPF is set at is going to be a lot of knob twiddling for sure. It also has an entirely separate HPF section (for whichever pickup is set as the 'treble' pickup'). It may be difficult to easily replicate sounds when the knobs have no markings, something I will have to address. It happened to be the preamp I got a hold of first, and having this more or less decided what kind of pickup design I would go for, because I sure cannot buffer 4 outputs per pickup individually with this preamp. None of these clone a Wal. But the last two I would expect to put me in the ball park. EDIT: @Aidan63 has kindly reminded me of another manufacturer of filter based preamps, and he has offered to let me borrow one on trial for the project. Let's see if I can make time to make it happen! 4. The JTEX Distiller - https://www.jtex.ca/distiller - I briefly researched these early on but forgot about them after I had already bought the ACG. I have seen some chat about these here on Basschat and they seem to be well regarded. I can't comment much more beyond saying they seemed more based on the Alembic style of this type of preamp rather than the Wal.

Ok, back from work now. I will respond to points made and then continue my discourse. I am gratified by the interest and comments so far. I really don’t know how successful I am going to be, but the journey is of interest. @Kiwimade a number of points which I’m having trouble multi-quoting, so will respond to them in order as best as I can. Apologies for length. 1. The body. This is a decision I will need to make at some point when/if I outgrow the test bed. The Pro series were ash and the Custom series were mahogany with a choice of facings. I think I can recognisably hear a ‘Wal sound’ that is consistent between them, even whilst recognising the Pro sounds perhaps a bit brighter and the Mark 2 more mid complex. I therefore agree the body is going to have some importance, but am going to approach this as one of my last steps, and even then only if need be. I will prioritise pickups, pre, and neck before I consider a change in body wood. Which, by the way, will be alder, because that is what I have to hand. It’s not my first choice, but it’s free, partly routed, and already painted. 2. The neck. I consider it moderately probable that I will need to get a multi laminate neck made after initial testing with a cheap one. If/when that happens, it will be as reasonable an approximation of the modern Wal necks as I can get, taking into account my own tastes, and ditching the ugly headstock and the uncomfortable ‘V’ shape. And nut width. Lol. It will be Jazz nut width and fairly deep front to back. It would be a multi-laminate of maple/mahogany. There will be no carbon rods and the fretboard will either be pao ferro or ebony, because acoustically, I like these, and I have a ton of maple FB basses already. Wal uses ebony for fretless, but not pao ferro. 3. Multicoil pickups and which ones to use. This is my greatest source of worry in the project. The pickups are in my view the biggest contributor to the Wal sound. Wals are recognisably ‘Wal sounding’ even with a single passive pickup with no EQ. Although the pickups are said to be very even/flat sounding, they still bear some kind of sonic imprint, otherwise, my statement above could not be true. The Rautia multicoils in the Spector struck me as being pretty even, but definitely not very ‘Wal sounding’. Yet it may be they are the most sensible choice, given their flatness. I decided not, but may live to regret that. The Bassculture Walbuckers definitely had something about them that does remind me of the Wal sound, and that was in a bass with a fairly conventional EQ set flat, and the pickups not being in the right spots either. However I couldn’t get a response from Hotwire to actually buy them. Perhaps I should have tried Bassculture directly. The pickups I ended up ordering sound absolutely bang on for the ‘Flea’ Wal sound, but I may run the risk of having too much voicing baked into what is meant to be a relatively flat pickup. Only time will tell. I think the clip provided by the maker is an accurate depiction for what I might expect out of a single pickup in the MM sweet spot and responding to strings played fairly hard. Maybe I’m fooling myself. However, given I want that particular sound, if it ends up being baked in there, I can live with that, I think. I have had Aaron Armstrong wind me custom pickups in the past. I still have the only existing set in the world of alnico Celinder humbucking Jazz pickups. All others are ceramic. They sound great. Alan Cringean developed his own ACG multicoil pickups with Aaron, and undoubtedly the needed skills are there if I want them. However I have a feeling Aaron might object to cloning a Wal pickup exactly, which is more or less what I would ask him to do. It might also end up even more expensive than the ones I have already found, no mean feat, lol. 4. The preamp and voicing of this. Agree it is also a key component. More on this in a moment.

Loads of things to respond to. Will do so after work. But for now… Yes. I think that was a Wal Pro. I think they stopped doing the carbon rods in the Mark 1/2/3 as the guys at Wal judged them to be unnecessary over and above their existing neck construction. Personally I don’t trust carbon rods give more stability, I think you need to use good quality wood. Have definitely seen stable maple necks with no rods and unstable ones with them in.