alexclaber

SM57 is pretty good as a budget solution. Don't use a kick mic!

Glad to hear it! We had this comment from another customer on our facebook: "Witnessed what must be the first Barefaced PA sale tonight, to Ash's band Bad Monkey Driver doing a pub gig - works as advertised! No separate bass guitar rig either, just DI'ed into the PA mixer with the rest of the band." https://www.facebook.com/pages/Barefaced-Bass-speaker-cabs/130257677703

That's what I meant too - you could use a single sub off a left or right send and it should work as well as if using a mono summed send. You just need some way to adjust the level to balance the sub with whatever tops you're using (which can be done within the DSP if need be).

The left/right point is a contentious one with subs! Apart from that brief period in the '60s when the like of Cream and The Beatles were going "wow! we have stereo, let's stick the bass on that side and the drums on the other", almost all music is recorded with instruments with sub content down the middle rather than panned. And then in mastering true lows get tidied into the middle because it works better on playback. If you're mastering for vinyl you actually have to run the lows in mono or risk the needle jumping. So I can't see there being problems with feeding a sub off a left or right send for recorded music. When dealing with live bands it's rare to do any significant panning and the bass and kick should always be down the middle. If you pan live music like you would recorded music then everything sounds wrong for the closer members of the audience, especially as the stage monitoring bleed will contribute to an imbalance out front. So I'd like to think that the lack of a stereo summing input on the sub is a non-issue.. Incidentally the first customer pair of FR800s was gigged last night!

I just wanted to repeat that the FR800s contain their own subs, in effect! The LF800(s) are there to increase max LF SPL, not to go lower. So if you are using two FR800s as your PA system you already have two subs. If you are using two FR800s and one LF800 you have three (3!!!) subs, not one. If you are using two FR800s and two LF800 you have four (FOUR!) subs. Just wanted to make that clear! If you're arguing about other PA rigs with conventional tops and subs then do carry on - but if you're talking about the Barefaced PA approach then re-read the previous paragraph.

I know it's a bit confusing because no-one else really does this, but the LF800 doesn't really act as a subwoofer when being used with an FR800 rig. The FR800s are producing lows too - they're not being highpassed at ~100Hz like normal tops. So many bands will only need two FR800s for their purposes. For louder/larger gigs they might add one LF800 to increase the total output of the system in the lower frequencies (which is always the region that runs out of output first). For larger still gigs they might add two LF800s. The LF800s should be placed wherever suits but ideally against a solid wall or in a corner. With the lows coming from the FR800s and the LF800(s) you will not be able to discern the LF800 as a separate sound source and by locating it in a different place and ideally by some solid boundaries you'll energise the whole venue more evenly with low frequency content. I got the idea of true full-range main speakers plus a sub purely for extra output/headroom from Meyer Sound! http://www.meyersound.com/product/x-10/ http://www.meyersound.com/product/x-800/

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1426714138' post='2721284'] Been looking at this sub again... Whats the advantage of the sub? Why not just buy another top (after all, they go as low) - am I right in thinking that you have crippled the response of the speaker via DSP so all the power goes to getting the low frequencies - and also removed the tweeter? Buying another top seems to make more sense. Gives you greater redundancy on a gig also - or does the sub develop more bass that the tops? [/quote] You could certainly use the FR800 as a sub because it's the same as the LF800 with the addition of the high frequency elements. Would just need the different DSP presets uploading, so you could choose two LF and two FR presets to give you redundancy on a gig. Main advantage of the sub is that it's £200 less expensive and lighter too - and that if you want an awesome yet little sub for your existing PA system you won't want the extra abilities of the FR800.

Check the connections on all the woofer terminals, a loose connection on one woofer could cause another woofer not to work whilst the one with the loose connection still works. It almost certainly isn't the crossover.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1426685235' post='2720741']Quick question as there's no pic of the subwoofer - is it front loaded? Or is a horn design? The only small drivered yet super efficient subs that I've experienced is the Danley tapped horn stuff - but they are far from super light! [/quote] I spent quite some time on tapped horn designs because I suspected that could be the best way to go (and fortunately Danley's patent application didn't succeed due to prior art). However, the more research I did, the more I found that for this purpose simple reflex boxes would perform at least as well and with lower size/weight/cost. We have another larger sub in the works which is going to be a more unusual design and if we ever get around to doing cinema type subs then I think we'll be going for some kind of horn or tapped horn as it's in the super low frequencies that the reduced excursion from the tapped horn pays off. With the very high excursion drivers we're using the problem with a tapped horn is that you run into increased risk of thermal failure, which means you end up having to be super cautious in how you program the DSP and select the amp, whilst with a ported box we can let the speaker be driven harder. [quote name='stoo' timestamp='1426688622' post='2720806']Only downside I can see vs the F112 is losing the wedge option... but i've got one of those Markbass folding propstands so even that's not a big deal.[/quote] We are working on a tilting solution for monitoring purposes!

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1426683523' post='2720698'] What would you say the closest competition is in terms of "accepted" PA rigs? Might be a good way to get it across to people [/quote] In terms of clean broadband and low frequency output then a pair of FR800s would be similar to a dual Mackie SRM550 + SRM1850 sub rig (that's two 1x12" tops and an 18" sub) or a pair of Mackie SRM750s (two 2x15" full-range speakers).

We're excited about these! We have rather a large marketing challenge on our hands because what most people are failing to notice is that these are true full-range PA speakers that do BIG lows. They're not like the usual small boxes you get on stands - apart from being that light! If your band only puts vocals, guitar and horns through the PA system and never uses the PA to also play recorded music, then they'd be complete overkill. They're designed to replace much larger tops + subs rigs, hence the cost. Push them hard with kick drums, bass guitar, synths etc. Back when we first used two Big Baby Ts as a PA system they were used for drum 'n bass at club levels and sounded awesome. The FR800s can do that. They're nothing like those plastic Mackies you see everywhere, despite also being 2-way active 12" boxes. Much like a Super Compact is nothing like a cheap practice 1x12" bass combo, despite both containing one 12" speaker. So how can we explain this to people? Any local (Brighton) bands want to borrow a pair?

[quote name='Bass Culture' timestamp='1426599751' post='2719683'] Alex, How long does it take to my dot on the map? I signed up this morning but I can't see a big blob representing me and my BB2 yet. BC [/quote] I shall badger our marketing person - going forwards I'm expecting it to get updated every few days as new users register their details and we stick the virtual pin in the map!

[quote name='Matt P' timestamp='1426596355' post='2719626'] I wasn't going to sign up as I have 2nd generation cabs but I will now, if Alex wants owns of older cab to join in then I'll join in, I'm always willing to show how amazing the cabs are. Matt [/quote] Yay, thanks! I know we made a big song and dance about the Generation 3 cabs (and it was justified!) but all our Barefaced cabs, right from the very start, are very special sonically. If you go over to talkbass you'll see there's a lot of excitement in the USA for the Greenboy cabs (fEarful, fEarless, Bassic etc) - those cabs are all closely related to Gen 1 and Gen 2 Barefaced models, using the same woofers, similar enclosure sizes and tunings, similar crossovers and high/mid elements etc. There's a reason bassists are excited about them, it's because they're bloody good, just like the Gen 1 & 2 Barefaced designs. Anyone trying and liking an older Barefaced cab, even the very first genuine authentic made-in-a-shed-with-a-big-hammer Compacts ;-) can be confident that our new cabs are more like those old Barefaced cabs than pretty much any other bass cabs they might try. If you like any Barefaced cab then there will be a current model you'll like at least as much, hopefully more!

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1426591603' post='2719544'] I've just looked at that map, and there are a lot of BC members who own BF cabs but are not on it (myself and Matt P included). To the OP: Where are you based? [/quote] Get on it then! At the moment there are only a tiny fraction of our customers on the map - and the discontinued models are just as important to players discovering us as our current range. Sign up!

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1426590597' post='2719528'] Just 'voting' with my ears rather than measured responses. I don't particularly dislike mids but when over-compensated for they can sound very harsh and brittle [/quote] We do spend a lot more time listening to cabs than measuring them when designing them! Harsh and brittle mids are usually due to excess distortion or them having peaks in certain places - 12XN drivers are very clean through the mids and have pretty much flat power response, so never 'over-compensated', whilst our 10CR drivers are deliberately recessed in the mids to give their mellow tone and balance their inherent subtle dirt. [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1426591110' post='2719534'] True - which is why most new BF owners have to spend a while re-EQing their amps to allow for the suddenly-present midrange! The first time I used a Compact I found it "shouty" in the midrange. It was only after I changed my amp settings that it all made sense... [/quote] The classic 15" Compact is quite barky in the mids - although the frequency response is relatively flat it's slightly raised through parts of the midrange and more importantly it has certain distortions that add to the midrange - it definitely has 'a sound' of its own.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1426589264' post='2719509'] Ones I can remember off the top of my head are the Super Compact (a few times), Super Twin, and Midget. Also heard one at the BassChat SE Bash in Autumn 2013 which was very mid-forward when demo'd through a MarkBass head. Can't remember which model this was but seem to recall it had new drivers - maybe the Super Twin. [/quote] It sounds like you're used to using cabs which are mid-shy because they're all pretty much flat through the mids. Edit! Sorry, the old Midget isn't flat through the mids, far from it. The Super Midget is though.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1426587848' post='2719491'] All the Barefaced cabs I've heard tend to have very pronounced mids so if you don't want these then you might want to look at other alternatives as well. [/quote] Which exact ones have you heard?

[quote name='1970' timestamp='1425928453' post='2712430']And yes I did feel that the cone was being pushed too much - it was flappy and woofy at higher volumes.[/quote] It wasn't the speaker not being able to handle the amp, it was the amp not having enough oomph to get the speaker loud enough. A 200W valve amp is only a 200W amp however you dress it up - it you want loud without lots of distortion then you need big cabs and plenty of cone area. A single 15" won't be enough unless you're happy with a very overdriven sound or not being so loud.

It's very rewarding to see how many of our customers are still enjoying their cabs after many many gigs - our ethos is the opposite of the 'disposable generation', we want bassists to still be gigging 100 year old Barefaced cabs in the 22nd century. Of the Gen 1 & 2 models we know of less than 10 blown drivers out of 1000+ (and many of our customers use big amps in loud bands). Anyway, I'm rambling off topic again... What I meant to say was that the popularity of the tone of the classic Midget+Compact stack was a key thing in the development of our 12XN driver - trying to get the punch and clarity that the Midget adds and the fatness and bottom the Compact brings but all from one driver (which ended up being a 12" but it could have been any size, we really don't care as long as it meets the goals). We actually ended up with something a bit smoother and cleaner sounding but we really like it. In fact, tonally Midget+Compact probably sits in the middle-ish of a smooth/clean to growly/dirty scale about 1/3 of the way from the 12XN550 at the clean end and 2/3 of the way from the 10CR250 driver at the growly end.

I should clarify, the Midget and Compact were Generation 1 & 2 models which we no longer make. They used the excellent Eminence Kappalite 3012HO 12" and 3015 15" drivers respectively. The Midget is quite a barky little thing, the Compact very much like the best old 15"s but with more power handling. The SUPER Midget and SUPER Compact are Generation 3 models (launched in late 2013) and both use our ridiculously awesome Barefaced 12XN550 12" driver. With the tweeter turned off on the SM it sounds essentially identical to the SC through the mids and highs. In the lows the SC sounds bigger and deeper whilst the SM is thumpier. The SC has very similar lows and comparable output to the classic Compact, despite the latter having a 15", because it has huge excursion (more than enough to make up for the reduced cone size) and has a punchier tighter cleaner tone with better dispersion. We're working on a new website at the moment because the current one contains so much information it's probably more confusing than helpful! On the plus side if you email us I can usually diagnose what's best for you very quickly and easily.

I suspect Eden 400W head into TWO10 would go pretty loud and fat, if the OP wants to be the first stop on a UK TWO10 tour?

Sorry, what prompted it was reading this thread's first post but somehow whilst writing it I forgot I was meaning to write it as a reply, addressing the 4 vs 8 ohm, large vs small, power, etc etc issues! I'm not getting senile, I'm just multitasking badly...

Many moons ago we at Barefaced (well I say 'we', it was just me back then!) sent out our first model, the Compact, for a load of basschatters to take turns trying out. We learnt a lot from that and I think people enjoyed gigging it. I'm now wondering if there'd be some interest in us doing that with the new TWO10? We've been almost shocked at what it can do - I know the engineering behind it says that it should be able to match many 4x10"s for output but actually hearing it get that loud is another matter. I'd be interested to hear how it works with lots of different players and different amps because the 4 ohm version does seem to get an improbable output from a small and relatively inexpensive cab.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1423490613' post='2685415'] Onto something for the next Gen alex! Changeable skins and grills for cabs Magnet mounted? [/quote] The plan for the post-CNC Gen 2 cabs was to make it easy to change the grills but we couldn't find an elegant solution - it's a question of having room for a frame that can handle the cloth's tension, having a non-rattly mount for the steel and having space for our very high excursion woofers to move to their mechanical limits (which is a long way out!) We changed the steel grills on the Gen 3 cabs but they're essentially mounted the same way. Might be able to do it on the guitar cabs though...

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1423487043' post='2685320'] Purely from a cosmetic point of view... could some silver cloth be glued/velcroed/attached over the metal grille? Not that I would do such a thing - but could it? [/quote] You can try it if you like but I don't want to get involved!