Vibrating G String

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1323463' date='Aug 1 2011, 12:20 PM']VGS - you say that 64's were made to different specs. Can you give more info here please ? I'd genuinely like to know more.[/quote] I was more referring to how loose the specs were in the old days and how much they varied from one example to the other. Originally they didn't count winds or care about wrap patterns. That kind of thing that is now marketed to the people who can hear that extra wrap and are willing to pay for it. Also Fender would change specs at anytime for many reasons. It's not like they made a spec and stuck with it all year. These dates should be considered rough generalizations of an average or preferred example IMO.

[quote name='bassybill' post='1322717' date='Jul 31 2011, 07:30 PM']When you're playing "Disco Inferno" or your band's latest magnum opus on your next gig, who's going to know whether your pickups are wound to 10k or 12k?[/quote] Bass Santa.

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1322156' date='Jul 31 2011, 06:19 AM']Aftermarket pickups (Wizards, Kent, SD, etc) describe pickups as 64's, 70's and on and on.[/quote] I don't think that's a reasonable way to describe pickups as it assumes all '64's shared a common spec which they didn't. I would look to the winders of your choice and ask what they mean by those years. Generally I find they will ascribe the same tonal differences claimed by the wood choices associated with those years which is illogical to me.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1319101' date='Jul 28 2011, 02:40 AM']Second, insufficient understanding of how to formulate a scientific hypothesis and test it.[/quote] Coupled with a powerful ego unable to consider they may be wrong once they have publicly stated an opinion. It's a religious type argument. I thought I'd point a few fingers When people quote advertising as scientific proof it reminds me of the circular logic of many religious arguments. In the guitar world advertising seems to be almost the exclusive source of "science". That's so American

[quote name='lanark' post='1319071' date='Jul 28 2011, 02:18 AM']Well, it's accepted that Stradivarius used crap wood that instrument makers would nowadays rather burn than make an instrument from. Guess what, the explanation for the tone moves from wood, to the "special" glue or varnish or something, whatever. It can't just be that he was exceptionally good at making instruments and that the magic comes from a) the maker's skill and b ) the listener's brain *after* being told it's a Strad.[/quote] It could also be that they just aren't as great as they are hyped to be but are often played by great musicians. There have been blind tests with Strads where experts could not identify them by tone alone but as usual once they were told which is which they offered new judgements that reaffirmed their expertise. But you're right, for many years the varnish was the alchemists secret that brought magical powers to the favored golden calf. Yeah, I think we're on the same page It's like arguing religion, even simple logic is so quickly dismissed. Strads are great because they have aged for hundreds of years. So then they weren't the result of expert wood selection and skill. NO!!! It's both mutually exclusive ideas and stop persecuting me hater!!!

[quote name='dc2009' post='1319034' date='Jul 28 2011, 01:39 AM']ime = in my estimation = subjective no? :s[/quote] I was hoping you'd actually try to back up your statement and not just give the definition for IME which is not what you're writing about. What is this wood quality you are making these grand claims for? I think you don't know yourself and are just repeating things you've heard but I thought I'd ask to see if you know what you're saying instead of knowing you're saying the right things.

[quote name='cytania' post='1318701' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:11 PM']Then there's the mystery of the Rickenbacker clank; huge bridge? metal clad pickup? or dual truss rod? but it's there waiting for a pick to unleash it.[/quote] Sounds like the pick is the tone source

[quote name='cytania' post='1318701' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:11 PM']The most obvious difference is playing any mahogany acoustic versus a normal pine top, the mahogany is instant delta blues and no maker can seem to mess it up.[/quote] Many different woods from all over the world are sold as mahogany even though they aren't. They sound different if you don't call them mahogany. What you may not be considering is that guitars built for certain tones use woods that have those reputation because they are in the business of selling guitars. But it's not the wood giving those tones. Most Ferraris are red but it's not the color that makes them go fast, they are red because that's what fast car owners like to see. Pickups and preamps can be scoped and tonal differences can be measured to the specific frequency and builds can be predicted and repeated. These are real differences. You will never see someone saying rosewood has a notch around 2.4k, that would be real and the tone differences are imagined. All the things that really shape tone can be measured, amps cabs, effects etc... This is not possible for wood as there are no tones specific to certain genus' or species. But like santa claus it has a lot of firm believers who won't have it any other way.

[quote name='Mikeg' post='1318658' date='Jul 27 2011, 12:41 PM']Thats realy nice man, great work. Where'd you get the wood from?[/quote]Thanks, the wood came from a many wood stores around Los Angeles.[quote]Also if you dont mind me asking, what machinery was required for this build?[/quote] I would have the wood stores do any ripping on a table saw I needed and the rest of the surfacing and dimensioning would be done with a router and some clever jigs. I also had a bandsaw and a drill press and that was it for machinery.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1318047' date='Jul 27 2011, 02:53 AM']You're giving me Ideas. Now should I go onto Talkbass and post as a Lutiher and get it started [/quote] I would encourage that

[quote name='Wolverinebass' post='1317986' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:56 AM']Would you accept a fiver for this bass if the wood was so cheap?!! Just kidding. That is a seriously nice looking bass. Top gear mate!![/quote] Well the ebony was a bit more but the maple and purpleheart was not that expensive. I'd spend a god deal of time picking through maple boards to find a good straight grained flatsawn piece. For tone I just slapped in some Smith gear and it sounds just like a Smith even though I used different woods and a lot less of it. I sold it for $3k 20 years ago but I can pass on your fiver offer to the current owner

[quote name='dc2009' post='1318144' date='Jul 27 2011, 04:33 AM']There is basic structural quality, presence of knots etc, and of course visual. You can't define good in terms of tone in anything other than subjective terms because it is a subjective descriptor.... Kiln drying will not maintain the same wood structure as air drying, beyond a point. Fender use a certain stock of woods, and perhaps ones that they can get away with not curing, the wood in things like Warwicks are fairly obscure and seeing as very few other companies use them, I have no idea if the curing is necessary or not. I know they cure bubinga and maple for drum kits, so the logic seems the same.[/quote] So what does it mean when you say regarding tone "but IME wood quality is infinitely more important than the actual wood you use!"?

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1317895' date='Jul 26 2011, 06:53 PM']If I was buying an acoustic instrument, like a double bass or a quality acoustic guitar, I would expect to hear the difference the wood makes.[/quote] I've met a number of acoustic builders who have said to me that wood doesn't matter in acoustics either, but if you want to make the sale you have to flatter the customer and not try to teach them. Then there are builders like Rainsong who will try. Some Status necks are apparently plastic and graphite around MDF, why does that not get credited with the tone? Here's a clip of what I'm pretty sure is a balsa wood bodied bass. You can really hear the epoxy if your ears are good enough.

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1316615' date='Jul 26 2011, 12:59 AM']Or...the combination of woods is such that they cancel each others differences out....or...that the listener didn't notice the differences. There's a simple test for those who say wood doesn't make a difference. Play a Status and testify that graphite doesn't make a difference.[/quote]That test is beyond simple and completely unscientific. Let's try another simple test, who in this thread is smarter than the other posters in this thread? Will we get 50% saying yes and 50% saying no? Any bass you play will be colored by the expectations you have. This can be demonstrated scientifically and does not just rely on selected anecdotes that match the expectations. No need to use faith arguments like testifying. How emotionally the case is presented does not make it more true but it will effect the perceptions and the stubbornness of the claims. [quote]IF graphite makes a difference (because its [url="http://www.janartsguitars.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=6"]denser[/url]), then why shouldn't different densities in woods?[/quote]Status basses are not made of graphite, they have graphite in them. Why are you not also saying Status is the sound of plastic binders? Again we're just simply selecting the details that fit the bias and offering them as anecdotal proof. [quote]The difference is there, I'd suggest its not as distinct for some. A bit like giving someone brought up on chinese takeaways a plate of beef carpaccio and asking them whether they thought it tasted better. [/quote]Well now we're getting into pure fallacies like appeal to authority and ad hominem. If you can hear the tone you should be able to tell what wood a bass is made from by just listening to a clip. No one can do that. If you can't define a claim that is predictable and repeatable the claim is likely false.

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1317586' date='Jul 26 2011, 12:20 PM']Where I've found the luthier earns their money is in being able to tell those differences before the instrument comes together. Less luthiers out there can do that, than one might think.[/quote] I'd suggest it's even less than that

[quote name='jmsjabb' post='1317498' date='Jul 26 2011, 11:22 AM']I am not disputing the facts you suggest, I fully agree pups, strings, player, weather, paint, carpet, curtains, moisturiser cream brand all effect the sound, it's just timber is also one factor in that overall sound.[/quote] As is the shirt you are wearing when you play it and how fat you are. Ambient air temperature and the temperature of the strings has more effect on tone than wood choice. Scientifically speaking of course.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1317448' date='Jul 26 2011, 10:45 AM']I hear the best stuff is cut by the blonde virgins of a pygmy tribe in the everglades and dried by the farts of the elders.[/quote] You're joking but this is how those rumors get started.

[quote name='dc2009' post='1317161' date='Jul 26 2011, 07:08 AM']I'm sure it'll be fine, but IIRC bass wood is air dried rather than kiln. No idea on the difference it makes, though you may like to find out.[/quote] No commercial wood that I'm aware of is air dried. Better to just buy anything and have it blessed by a priest, if you're religious you'll hear the difference.

[quote name='Mikeg' post='1317018' date='Jul 26 2011, 05:37 AM']I heard that a sawmill near me might be selling kiln dried ash in varying sizes, im temped to go get some.[/quote] Try digging your fingernail into different parts of the board, if you're lucky enough to find some that compresses easily ask them to cut off that end as it will be lighter. This is what most tonewood gurus think is the species of swamp ash. The lumber yard will know it as the crap that cabinet builders don't want and will be happy to get rid of it. If you buy it from a tonewood supplier though it will be heavily marked up. But you get what you pay for

[quote name='dc2009' post='1316983' date='Jul 26 2011, 05:20 AM']Though selecting the same species from the same forest/region ideally from a tree of similar age will get you fairly close.[/quote] Absolutely not, ash for example is famous for varying greatly from one end of a board to another. There are more variations in a species than between species for the most part. Don't take hype from salesmen as science, it's not.

[quote name='dc2009' post='1316737' date='Jul 26 2011, 02:37 AM']Bass/guitar wood needs curing time (or whatever you wanna call it). I'm not convinced this is the same as what it is for the mainstream wood market - might be worth finding out.[/quote] Fender never cured wood. Most fancy luthiers who talk about wood curing are simply describing storing wood with more marketable names. Wood does need to be kiln dried which is more stable than the tonewood hyped and usually false air dried concept. Allowing the wood to stabilize to current atmospheric conditions is important regardless of any previous treatment. Also wood should be allowed to stabilize after gluing and before cutting to shape.

[quote name='Mikeg' post='1316677' date='Jul 26 2011, 01:40 AM']So would wood from my local sawmill be rubbish for guitar making?[/quote] No, look for straight grain and lack of cracks & defects for necks. Anything will work for bodies. Here's a bass I made from a local wood store's supplies. The maple was less than $3 a board foot.

[quote name='dc2009' post='1316401' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:14 PM']I think wood is important, but IME wood quality is infinitely more important than the actual wood you use![/quote] Can you define wood quality without using terms like better or more goodly? What specifically makes one piece of maple good and another not good in regards to tone and not just visual or structural considerations? Bonus points for being able to do this without defining high end Foderas as utter crap.

[quote name='Roland Rock' post='1316432' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:39 PM']I have query directed towards those who believe that the type of wood makes a difference to tone: They say that the denser the wood, the brighter the tone - makes sense to me. People tend to say that a maple board is brighter sounding than a rosewood one, even though I'm quite certain that rosewood is softer/more dense than rosewood. Why is this?[/quote] I wouldn't say that wood makes no difference as that will lead to ridiculous hypothetical arguments and faith based bickering. I do say that wood makes no difference discernible by listening to the sound of an electric guitar. If you look at maple it is a bright colored wood, therefore it sounds bright to those that believe they can identify species by tone even though they rarely even understand what wood species means. Rosewood is denser than maple but has a dark color, therefore the wood experts will say it sounds darker. After watching this argument for over 30 years I can say I have never seen anyone that can demonstrate their supernatural claims no matter how angrily they state them. Actually most can't even tell rosewood from other genus' by looking at them. Also as for dense equalling brighter tone. It is also assumed to have a deeper tone, dense equals scooped is the logical conclusion of those statements.

What an awesome thread where people are recommending adjustments instead of buying new parts to try and purchase tone Since the OP wants more low end and highs the VPF filter could be the answer. It is a scoop knob and I don't use it but it sounds like what you are asking for. Once you try it you may ask for something different but it will boost the extremes. I'd also agree with rolling off the bridge pickup a bit or even all the way for what I consider the closest to a P tone on a J.