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From Tooting Tram & Social on Weds 5 Feb.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1391703781' post='2360429'] Not the one I've ordered. [url="http://www.east-uk.com/index.php/all-products/spm-02-modules.html"]http://www.east-uk.c...02-modules.html[/url] [/quote] Ah, that's new. It says no knobs though and it's nearly a third cheaper than a J Retro or whatever.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391695820' post='2360286'] Social Darwinism sounds like an oxymoron to me. The watchmaker is blind remember. Things just play out naturally. We're just watching a slow-motion car crash, we can't actually stop it. Anyway, it doesn't matter what I believe does it, it won't change anything, except in my own little bubble of course. [/quote] What about countries that don't have our kind of H&S regs or implementation? You are arguing some fine points about specifics and yet your ToRs are extremely woolly, who is 'we' for instance? You also seem to include the whole of humanity in your arguments and then present evidence that is only really pertinent to the UK and Europe, possibly the USA. I have seen this often that people make judgements on the whole of humanity when really they are only talking about their own country or culture.

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1391693074' post='2360233'] I thought that's what you meant when you said "God preserve us" The good news is that once you've made yourself into a jam, you'll feed the future of the human race, when everyone lives in nuclear blast bunkers during the nuclear holocaust. [/quote] Make sure you let FlyFisher know.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391690487' post='2360179'] That we're probably doomed. [/quote] Dude, are you a bit of a social Darwinist? Do you believe that human survival depends on sifting humanity for high intelligence and adaptability and allow those who aren't to die off?

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391690353' post='2360178'] You're probably only looking at the details and not the big picture. Do you really think I'm suggesting the decline of human intelligence is down to H&S legislation? Think about it as a symptom rather than a cause. There are loads of other symptoms if you think about it. A topical one would be our prediliction for building on flood plains and then getting all upset when things get flooded, and that's before we even get into the whole climate change/unsustainability issues. What sort of intelligent species would behave like that? [/quote] I think it's you who needs to look at the big picture and get some more information before making sweeping judgements.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391689966' post='2360172'] I hear your sarcasm but ironically you're supporting my contention about people being dumbed down. Yes, we're almost entirely dependent on technology for our very survival these days - in our current numbers anyway - and very few people actually understand how it all works. Sure, 6 year old kids can operate a smartphone but that's not the same as understand how stuff really works and we've all heard stories about how those same kids think that milk comes from a supermarket. Strip away our technological support and the vast majority of people wouldn't survive on their own for more than a few weeks. [/quote] What do you define as 'technology'? What are acceptable limits for knowledge of how stuff works? Do you know how your car works? Would you repair your own gas system? Would you advise others that they should be able to? I'm really not sure what you're on about anymore. What's your point?

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1391689386' post='2360159'] Kilner brand jam sets - the brand of jam making equipment your God uses! [/quote] If you post any more videos like that I might buy one of these to boil my own head in.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391689345' post='2360158'] What opinion - that human intelligence is declining? That's what the research is suggesting. An uncomfortable truth perhaps? And why does the Huff link not support my opinion? If humans are becoming less intelligent then surely they are more likely to do dumb things instead of living by their wits. Seems to me there's plenty of dumbing-down legislation to help people not having to think about things for themselves. But hey, none of this really matters because we're not going to change things are we? Just like that frog Times have indeed changed. [/quote] I think you need a large single malt and a think, mate. You are using a certain logic and coming up with completely skewed theory about declining human IQ levels and linking it to risk management. Personally I think you are just spoiling for a good argument but not coming up with anything sensible to argue about anymore. BTW, H&S regs have not changed much over the preceding five or so years.

East pres come with knobs don't they, the ones I bought did, you specify the colour when ordering. If you got one without knobs the cost of them would be deducted by John, no?

God preserve us. Utterly stultifying.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391650000' post='2359848'] And there's my point. There will always be total dicks and the only way to totally protect everyone is to gradually introduce more and more regulations and restrictions, which is what is happening and as each new raft of regulations is introduced it clears the way to look for more risks, which of course abound, and so it goes on. [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/people-getting-dumber-human-intelligence-victoria-era_n_3293846.html"]http://www.huffingto..._n_3293846.html[/url] or the more amusing version: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8[/media] [/quote] That's your opinion and not a fact though mate. And your Huff link does not support your opinion. Times have changed and emotional intelligence is valued more highly than IQ now, or so I've read.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/red-hot-chili-peppers-flea-explains-his-miming-at-the-super-bowl-20140204?utm_source=dailynewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391626797' post='2359438'] Not at all. Of course I understand why it's done but my point is that people think it's the answer to everything so they don't have to think about such things for themselves and therefore become dumbed-down about such things. Testing the condition of a mains lead will, of course, help a little bit and will no doubt occasionally reveal a faulty or dangerous cable. Fine. Except that a gigging band, full of musicians who are, frankly, not exactly the most technically-savvy of people, are plugging these cable in, pulling them out, treading all over them and scrunching them into bags many times a week without a second thought - and why should they, because the cables are all PAT tested every year right? It's a gradual dumbing-down of responsibility while the nanny state does everything for them and insists that they don't need to think for themselves in favour of using a 'competent person' instead. THAT's what I'm suggesting is the real problem with all this, not the PAT testing itself. But hey, having turned out a generation or two of people who can no longer even wire a plug (not that they need to of course because they're all moulded these days because no one would know what to do!) there's not a hope in hell of turning back the clock and teaching people to be resourceful and capable and responsible. [u]It's a bloody mains cable FFS[/u] We're creating a population of people who don't understand the importance of fitting the correct fuse and checking if it is damaged in anyway before they use it and we need a 'competent' person to do it for them. And a million other examples. Pah! [/quote] You mean back in the good ol days when a total dick who should know better puts a nail in a plug for a fuse, or sticks bare mains wires in the socket and keeps them there with matchsticks? Or a night club owner who locks fire exits? Fewer people die or get horribly injured at work now, and put the public in much less danger. And it's largely because of the Act and the supporting regulations, and the HSE. Or perhaps you'd like to be back in the days when things like the Bradford fire could easily happen.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391617756' post='2359300'] You're talking nonsense again. The MOT is a test of road worthiness at a particular point in time. As soon as you leave the garage it's the responsibility of the driver to ensure the car remains roadworthy. The same with PAT. The tester gives you a certificate that says it's ok now at that moment in time. After that if something happens it's down to the owner of the equipment. The owner is quite at liberty to argue that the PAT wasn't done properly. In which case the tester shows all his documents and qualifications and argues he did. [/quote] Exactly. I've been saying all along PAT is only one of the precautions.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391609536' post='2359149'] Fair points, but it suggests that the PAT testers have to have knowledge of the circumstances and how can they cover every eventuality? In an office environment I can see that there will likely be a person responsible for the company H&S policies and everything will have been determined beforehand, so the PAT tester is called in at the appropriate intervals and told to label everything for next testing as required. Fine. But how does a typical gigging band deal with all this? Who is likely to be competent enough to draw up a band 'H&S policy' and decide how often their stuff should be tested. OK, so they phone up the nearest PAT tester, but how do they know if they are competent to judge the risks of a gigging band? Are there PAT testers who specialise in different fields? [/quote] You don't need a written H&S policy in a band, not generally anyway. Only employers of 5 or more people need written policies. The PAT tester should be asking about the equipment and how it's used. Apart from a few strict duties, H&S law does not require risks to be eliminated, but they should be mitigated so far as reasonably practicable. However, I agree that it can be difficult to even make bands aware they have any H&S responsibilities. Given that most small venues they play will be in far worse shape than the bands' equipment, and that few, if any, H&S requirements are required of the band by the venue. Insurance companies providing PLI could do more I reckon.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391601546' post='2358977'] Out of interest, if you have your gear PAT tested (should that really be PATed?) how does the tester decide on the 'next test' date, given all the variables? Surely a mains cable used to power a desk PC that will probably not be disturbed for the next few years is a completely different case to a mains lead used by a band that does a few gigs every week? My bet is that they just allow one year whatever the circumstances - which rather makes a mockery of all this 'competent person' and 'appropriate test regime' interpretation of the acknowledged 'wooliness' of the basic regulations. [/quote] Again, it's down to the tester's knowledge of the hazards and risks involved. For offices where the PAT testers sweep the areas testing everything it will probably be every two years depending on the equipment, or perhaps annually. They need to talk to the H&S team or managers responsible for the equipment as they will be aware of the requirements. The regs have to be guidance only for PAT regard as there are many variables, equipment, usage, environment, hazard ID and risk assessment. PAT testing is only one element of the precautions.

Tooting Tram & Social (free entry) - London SW17 - Weds 5 Feb 2014 46-48 Mitcham Road SW17 9NA [url="https://www.facebook.com/events/289846897829818/"]https://www.facebook...89846897829818/[/url] [b][color=#333333]10.15pm KIT RICHARDSON[/color][/b] [color=#333333]"If you were looking for a new Kate Bush, we might just have found one… I think along with Stevie Nicks, Kate Bush really is the other holy grail of female vocalists isn't it? And frankly Kit Richardson is the closest to it in my mind recently." Gill Mills, Amazing Radio[/color] [url="https://www.facebook.com/kitrichardsonmusic"]https://www.facebook...richardsonmusic[/url] [url="https://soundcloud.com/kit-richardson"]https://soundcloud.com/kit-richardson[/url]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1391545312' post='2358478'] Yep. See below. Yep. See above. [/quote] It's not a conflicting statement old bean.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391539683' post='2358376'] Depends on the restaurant. I've had a chef insist on showing me around his kitchen. As I've said before, it's pretty much impossible to argue about any of these things on safety grounds, or about the extra requirements that will be required in five years time, and probably even more after that. So, given that it's all eminently sensible, it's ironic how the knee-jerk reaction of most people is that it's all just more red tape and an excuse for making money. it's doesn;t seem as if there's much popular support for it all. Odd really. [/quote] That quote about kitchens ain't one from me mate. Most people's knee jerk reactions that it's red tape and a money making opportunity are normally based on bullshit. But some contractors do take the piss by giving people wrong information so they can increase work.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391536744' post='2358311'] Objection, your honour. Hypothetical question and not relevant to this case. We're discussing actual competence, not paper qualifications. Objection your honour. Irrelevant question. We don't observe the jury in their deliberations but we trust them to do what we ask of them based on their competence, otherwise everyone would require to be watched over while doing their jobs. I see no other Judges in this court observing your honour, though I don't doubt your competence. (Court is now adjourned while the Judge has a quiet word with me ) [/quote] Competence requirements and assessment should be proportionate to the foreseeable risk. For portable appliance testing, training, experience and evidence of 'keeping one's hand in' through regular portable appliance testing would be required, and ensuring testing equipment is calibrated and stored and maintained according to the manufacturer's recommendations. The level of competence required should be proportionate to the hazards and risks rising from the equipment. Testing mains cables is quite simple, testing portable computers less so, testing fixed IT installations can also fall under PAT requirements. In terms of periodicity, that is also dependent on the hazards and assessment of risk. Normal office portable appliances like desk fans, heaters, etc can be every 2 years, more active equipment like power tools may well require more frequent testing, fixed portable equipment installations should be normally tested on installation and then every five years. None of this obviates the need for regular visual inspection for damage. If you are using portable appliances at a venue, you have legal duties to take reasonable care of your own and others' safety and health, as do those responsible for safety at the venue.

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391524874' post='2358117'] So anyone can just make up their own policy as regards testing and in the event of an incident it is then up to the courts to decide if the policy that someone has invented was proper for the work they were carryng out? I thought there would be more formal guidelines than this. [/quote] Policy should be based upon legal requirements. Formal guidelines can be found here http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm and here http://www.hse.gov.uk/event-safety/electrical-safety.htm

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391523438' post='2358084'] So on the safety side alone, rather than contractual obligation, how many here PAT test every electrical item in their house very interval that HSE rules require? [/quote] Unless you are working at home you don't have to. It's the Health and Safety at WORK Act. They are not HSE rules, they are regulations, legal requirements.