Lowender

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370438754' post='2100839'] So the Beatles were influenced by Bach, therefore Zappa was, and the New York Dolls, and GWAR, and Lenny Breau, and you and me. And that's why your theory works but is ultimately useless because none of those artists sounds anything like each other. You could equally say they were influenced by the invention of the electric guitar. In the end it doesn't really mean sh*t. What is jazz? If you mean II V I progressions, there's very little of that going on in much of Zappa's catologue. If you mean the jazz 'attitude', not much of that either. [/quote] You missed the point. Or don't understand it. Or don't want to. It's okay though. Though the II V 1 progression comparison was pretty funny.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370431823' post='2100661'] This is an assumption a lot of people seem to make. I have only really heard a few of their early songs, Help, Day Tripper, etc. and a few later obvious ones, Hey Jude, Yellow Sub, etc. Same deal with the Stones. I was never interested in either of those bands and they have never been a musical influence. I imagine there are plenty of people like me on here. [/quote] Okay stick with me. You never listened much to the Beatles. Fine. But you were still influenced by them! How? Because their impact was so vast. Everyone employs what they did. It would be like someone saying they never heard of Bach. It wouldn't change the fact that they play in even temperament. You can be completely unknowledgeable about jazz, but Zappa listened to jazz, therefore , it influenced you. Ignorance of the influence is irrelevant. I've heard most everything Zappa has done except for re-issues and outtakes. But if someone never heard Zappa, it probably wouldn't make much difference in the scheme of things. He wasn't as big an influence on the landscape of music. It isn't like music changed direction because of Zappa. He was an artist with his own visison. Maybe you like it , maybe you don't. That's in the ears of the listener. But the comparison to the Beatles isn't analogous. It's like comparing Rembrandt and Pollack. Which is no comparison at all.

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1370365860' post='2099815'] Thanks, Lowender, for a measured response. It's much appreciated. I don't think I'm taking it personally at all. I am not a part in the discussion about Zappa vs. Beatles, and your calling Zappa's music names does not touch me. I'm just calling you out on net forum behaviour that I think does damage to BC. Must admit that when I wrote the word "structure", I knew very well that you could decide to call me out on it (though that was not my aim with writing it anyway). The point though was never that you litterally (literally?) said so much, as much as that your denigrating remarks more than hinted at it - whether you meant to or not. See, good music by definition is structured music, whilst structure in music does not mean the music must be good. Then, when you regard The Beatles' music as high art, your evaluation [b]must[/b] contain an understanding of the quality of the music's structure. So: I don't think you stated your case either badly or too well, as I think what you stated was a clear representation of your case. The error however lies in the case itself, as, inherently, it partly is based on (ac)countable entities and partly on denying same. best, bert [/quote] Fair enough. All good.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370354190' post='2099581'] In essence, you think most of Zappa's music is very difficult but unmusical, influenced little, and was nothing new or innovative, whereas the Beatles were total gamechanging geniuses who made pop music into high art and influenced everyone, even if they are not aware of it. That and the fact that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is WRONG. [/quote] Whatever you say bro.

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1370336549' post='2099168'] [/quote] Nice try. But I never said anyone was wrong for not liking the Beatles -- they would just be wrong in not recognizing their influence. Sorry for the confusion. But I imagine you were just reaching for something there, right? xiddxx, I don't get the bong reference. I'm sure it's clever though. Bass Tractor. You're taking it personally -- exactly what i was trying not to do. I never said his music wasn't structured. So your entire argument is based on misinformation. I made the point earlier about scoring a cat walking across a piano would be difficult, but it'll still sound like a cat walking across a piano. Oh well. I guess I didn't state my case very well. Or maybe it was stated too well. I'm not sure.

[quote name='mickster' timestamp='1370335726' post='2099157'] The problem is, Lowender, you have a way of expressing your opinions about your favourite bands in a way that *isn't* subjective, that goes beyond you just explaining why you like something and keeps making universal claims. Just re-read your first paragraph above about the Beatles. You're making hugely contentious claims for them that go way beyond just you expressing an opinion that you like them. The Beatles thread itself went the same way. When others disagree, or post about an artist/band they like, you then seem to try to argue not just that you dont liek them as much (which is cool), but that they're wrong. This is music; it's not summat that can be 'won' or disproven. Just trust in your own taste, share opinions, and let others do the same and these threads will remain much more congenial. [/quote] Well, I think you're absolutely wrong -- not because I disagree with your opinion, but that you're saying I'm doing things that I am not doing. Your claim is simply erroneous. I never ONCE said I thought someone was wrong for liking someone I didn't care for. Not ONCE. In fact, I've said quite the opposite. Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

I don't see this in any way as comparable to the Beatles argument. To me, there's no argument there. The Beatles took pop music and made it high art and changed everything about it. The way it was played, the way it was sung, harmonized, composed, arranged. Every bass player has been influenced by McCartney -- whether they admit it or not and weather they even know it or not. Hell, you can say that about Harrison, Lennon and Ringo's playing. You can't say any of that about Zappa. If Zappa made his mark, it's that he brought a 20th century sensibility to pop music. He liked Varese and Stravinsky, but didn't approach it from a schooled perspective. He saw it as weird and avant garde and exploited the tone of the times to do "his version" or weird and avant garde. He started out on the Steve Allen show playing "bicycle'. lol It was typical perfomance artist silliness. He just got really good at it. It was goofy and trippy and he pushed boundaries and for that, he's left his mark. My point (before it was derailed) was just to say, (much as Dingus pointed out) a lot of the stuff was more goofy than great. I personally don;t find him funny. Sure, when I was 17 it was. He said cooties! He's talking about peeing in the snow! hahahahaha. But it just doesn't hold up. And much of the complexity of his music doesn't impress me because I'm a better musician than I was when I was 17. I can play complex music. It isn't enough for me. It needs to be GOOD music. And I honestly don't think a lot of it. is. Hey, Steve Vai is an AMAZING guitar player. Truly brilliant. But I think his song writing kinda sucks too. And he tries to be funny and just comes off as a fool. But that's subjective. And in the end, that's what all opinions are about -- explaining why you feel one way or another. Just saying something sucks because you don't like it is pretty inarticulate. And dismissing someone else because their tastes differ form yours is pretty arrogant. I think Frank would agree.

Just keep doing it. Practice with simple songs -- 8th notes in the bass, and work your way up. Go over tricky parts again and again. It's the only way. Simplify if you must. A bass part can be trimmed but the vox are the main priority.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370273644' post='2098409'] OK old chap. You win. [/quote] I'm not sure what I won nor do I care to have won. I just hoped you learned that you shouldn't make presumptions about people. You may want to watch that.

My fave Zappa work is parts of Hot Rats, parts of The Grand Wazoo and parts of Roxy and Elsewhere. That would make an awesome double album. But a lot of other stuff just misses the mark for me.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370272838' post='2098394'] Well, you seem to be on a mission. It's more helpful if you quote me accurately rather than paraphrase according to your inferences. [/quote] It was close enough and you know it. Besides, anything more would just be more pointless engagement.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370270704' post='2098358'] I haven't made any arguments. [/quote] My mistake. I most have misunderstood you when you said... "You are obviously not keen." "Your argument has no weight." "I doubt anyone of sound mind and knowledge would think as you do." "You can't handle criticism." (So I assume you were criticizing me for thinking as I do and for some reason, it's okay for you to do it.) "You're too sensitive." "You're making value statements." "It isn't worth engaging with you." Sounds kinda antagonistic to me, but sometimes words get misconstrued. So it could be me.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370268932' post='2098322'] I think you are a rather sensitive person who is happy to make strong statements but can't handle any criticism of them, thinking they are personal attacks, so I doubt it's really worth me engaging with you on here. [/quote] Nah, I think you just can't deal with someone disagreeing with you and showing flaws in your argument. But it's cool. No judgements here.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1370264286' post='2098230'] No it isn't. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you are correct in saying that it is crap. Why do these threads always end in arguments at the moment?? [/quote] I never said that. And that's not what the sentence I was referring to implies. And I wasn't making it an argument -- just stating my opinion. It's only when people have a problem with opposing opinions that there's an argument. I have no problem with what anyone else thinks about Zappa. But I will defend a personal attack.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370261136' post='2098166'] Good stuff. You're obviously not keen, but that does not really lend any weight to your arguments. For instance what do you mean by talented but overrated? That's just purely subjective conjecture. [/quote] Not being keen doesn't lend weight to my argument? That sentence is contradictory. Anyway, believe it or not, a difference of opinion than yours can still be relevant. Yes, someone can most definitely be talented and overrated. What's so hard to comprehend? I can say that "The Hangover" was a funny movie, but if I were to say it was one of the greatest movies ever made, that would be over rating it. Thus -- the difference. Get it?

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370260480' post='2098152'] Do you know much about Zappa? Have you heard all periods of his catalogue? [/quote] Yes and yes.

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1370248679' post='2097954'] From the point of view of the quality of the playing and the bells and whistles then you're right there's not much new in it, but to couple delivery of entertainment of that quality, with such a cutting through the crap social commentary set him apart, and elevated him, in my mind, to genius status. [/quote] True, Zappa was (on occasion) was making social commentary, which was very trendy at the time. (Heck -- "Eve of Destruction" was a top 10 hit in 1967. That could never happen today). But in retrospect, it was hardly genius. In fact, even back then I found his humor on the puerile side. I'm not saying this because I dislike Zappa. I think he's talented, just overrated. And I was more impressed by him when i was more impressionable. As I've grown I've come to realize a lot of what gets passed off as "too deep for the casual listener" is really just indulgent nonsense. Sure, you can score a cat walking across a piano and harmonize it for a 12 piece band and it would require a certain amount of skill to execute. But it'll still sound like a cat walking across a piano.

Oddly enough, I don't think Zappa was ahead of his time. He was doing what Spike Jones was doing 40 years earlier.

Whatever you decide to use (and like) is your sound. What's the problem? It all comes down to what you play.

That first video shows some serious skill. The second one, not so much.

Wonderful. I'm surprised no one has chimed in with "He has no groove", or, "I don't like his tone!" lol The kid is ridiculously talented. On the flip side, I've taught some kids who showed amazing potential , or more accurately, learned a few things really well very young, and never progressed much afterwards. You just never know. The shame is that, the way the industry is going, by the time this kid can play in clubs, there might not be a live music scene left.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1369407117' post='2088917'] I think the song sounds crap played on anything other than a five string bass, what are you using? [/quote] Agreed. (And I'm mostly a 4 string player). Even if you lower the key ,which many singers would need to do, it still has to be in that lower register otherwise it just sounds weeny.

Many soundmen and even many musicians do not understand a good bass sound. They just equate it with low end. Though I have to say, in some of the better venues and studios I've played, some of them got it. The problem with big arenas is they think they have to fill the sound with a massive bottom -- and that includes the kick drum. And it just sounds annoying.

[quote name='Lynottfan' timestamp='1366623750' post='2054881'] [media]http://youtu.be/ZYLsbcZfYL4[/media] The mighty Bob Fazio, I find this mans playing to be inspirational and motivates to me to practice, a nice mix of styles and techniques, plus he is not boring either. [/quote] THAT was nice!

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1369063116' post='2084418'] I'd have to say the worst Beatles cover I've ever heard is that bloody awful version of "a little help from my friends" by Joe Cocker. Absolutely f***ing atrocious. [/quote] If I had to offer an example of "feeling" in music, that would be my choice. It's brilliant.