Chienmortbb

LIke Phil I would investigate the PA further before buying a new bass cab. I would not rule it out and remember that the you may need a cab at some point.

Post the make and model of the PA  speakers and we could comment further.

Rereading your original post, you have passive speakers. There is little real work going on as far as development of passive boxes and those that are out there in general will not do what you want. Also look at the amp. If the singer cut corners, and it sounds like he did, the amp just may not be up to it. Spotify tracks are compressed to hell and may sound better than a live performance. There will be limiters and protection circuits on the amp and they may affect the sound.

I was running my CQ20 on Bluetooth and got dropouts, so changed my WiFi on the CQ to 5GHz rather than 2.4GHz.
Has anyone run 5.8GHz IEMs or Mics alongside 5.8GHz WiFi? Our singer has just bought (without consultation) a Joyo/Legato system that is supposed to employ Channel Hopping to avoid clashes but I am curious/dubious so want to hear the experience of others.

My question is really meant for discussion about front of house rather than on stage monitors. Apologies for the long introduction.

When using our own PAs, most of us will be using the  "virtual" point source source cabinets. The type that have a woofer and a tweeter in a cabinet on a pole, with or without a subwoofer RCF Art series etc. Some are now going over to the sub on a stick/tea chest bass systems characterised by the Bose systems that have a miniature line array of multiple small speakers, all mounted at slightly different angles horizontally, allied with a subwoofer. The effect of multiple small drivers, as i understand it is firstly that the sound can be steered into the audience, and that the changes in angle help reduce feedback.

Going back to the the two per side speakers, is there any benefit to angling the two speakers asymmetrically to try to cancel reflected waves?  What I mean is say to point the speakers at opposing corners but not at the same angle. I will add some diagrams later to explain what I mean.

These settings are going into the mix for our next gig, don't tell the singer though.

On 23/03/2024 at 13:11, Dan Dare said:

How was my gig last night? A struggle. Won't disclose location, but it was in a south western city where they like to chuck statues in the harbour.

 

The venue was smallish, with a hollow wooden stage. The backline (provided, which was nice) was a couple of modestly sized and decent quality combos, so we thought it would be simple to play at reasonable onstage levels and let the PA take care of out front.

 

Afraid not. The PA cabs stood directly on the stage. No stands or isolation. The top boxes were 15s+horns and the subs were 15s. The subs made the stage resonate like a giant double bass and the result was one note bass flub. The walls were bare, the ceiling was low and it was an echo chamber. The sound was horrible.

 

The soundman's solution was to push the levels - out front and monitors - even harder when we explained we were having difficulty hearing what was going on during the soundcheck. Eventually, I asked politely if he could lose a lot of the low end and dial the subs right back. Everything cleaned up noticeably and we were reasonably happy.

 

Problem solved? If only. The minute we began our set, the sub levels went back up and all the low end we had asked to be removed re-appeared. I had to play entirely by sight. Couldn't distinguish individual notes at all. Our singer did a great job. The way she managed without being able to hear anything she was doing was impressive.

 

What is it about subs that causes people to crank them so hard that every bass note and kick drum beat results in a giant BOOOOOF? We wondered whether it was just a quirk of the stage sound, but when we stayed to hear a couple of numbers from the second band, it was the same out in the room. I'm getting too old for this caper.

I wonder if the dance music and hip-hop generation are pre-conditioned to want excessive low end? Our gig was on Friday so went to our local club. I don't usually like "professional karaoke" singers but this bloke could really sing. In the interval he put on some "backgroud music" that was so bass heavy it would  have drowned out the sounds of a full scale Red Army onslaught.

When I was being trained as an apprentice on both audio and video, the general rule was to turn the controls until you could see/hear a difference, then back them off a tiny amount. Nowadays the control knobs/faders for the bottom end are rammed against the end stops.

It is a good job that most digital mixers use rotary encoders or even touch screens for control.

11 hours ago, Combed20 said:

Can I ask what the app was, please @King Tut

Most compact digital mixers have a monitoring app. Soundcraft call it Me2 for the Ui series, Allen & Heath have CQ4U for the CQ  range. I am not sure about Behringer/Midas or RCF's M18.

19 minutes ago, Mickeyboro said:

Sound was so boomy

 We played in a Village Hall last Saturday and I had the same experience.

Sorry no pictures, WE also played the wilds of Dorset last night. The Horns Inn near Wimborne has a band on once a a month. Again pretty full when we got there with folks dining but they soon left ( before we started playing) and were replaced by a few music  fans. The Pub clear;y lost money on the gig but the Landlord told us he can "carry" the losses once per month. They have a stage in the garden and we hope to play that in the summer.

8 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

You can't really blame companies for being leery about fixing something bought used.

One word, Ashdown.

29 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

We were going to do that, I learned the bass solo (hideous thing) but the song sounded really flat when we did it, so we dropped it. Now the guitarist who hated that we dropped it is trying to bring it back, but I have completely forgotten it and am sure as hell not learning it again!

Its one of those songs that I hate, seems to go down well but hey. Maybe its just me.

On 16/11/2023 at 09:53, LLOYDWT said:

The WiFi has been faultless and was worth the cost of entry alone. I really don't miss having to use a router in addition to the mixer.

 

Mixing Station does not look as user-friendly, or as "aesthetic," as the native CQ app, and, aside from some missing features, and the disconnecting when idle, the CQ app is the best tablet mixing experience I've ever had.

I did eventually buy the CQ20. The WiFi is so much better than any of the mixers I have used, although the M18 is missing from those I have tried. What has impressed me is the noise....there is none that I can hear. It is also much smaller than I imagined and a better form factor than the  Soundcraft or Behringer/Midas competitors.  I also love the chorus for bass guitar, in fact all the effects seem pretty good. I also love the Double Tracker and plan to use it on tomorrow's gig. I have not needed the groups/DCA yet.

3 hours ago, zitherman said:

I have had a qu 16 for a number of years.Very capable and versatile

8 seperate monitor mixes and records all 16 channels plus l and r out

Very capable mixer.

Well never say never. Why not keep the head and look for a single cab? the 15" cabs will not be to current norms and certainly sound different to a modern PA speaker. A single FRFR cab would suit you well,  but make sure it is a good FRFR cab. Some of the "boutique" cabs are not FRFR. Alternatively look at a really good PA cabinet but by really good, I mean quite expensive.

I can only recommend what I have used. As that is not an extensive list I won't really say what you should go for but if you change bands, you may regret closing off the traditional back-line route.

1 hour ago, Elfrasho said:

Me and my band use a zoom l12 for rehearsals, in ears and occasionally live. Apart from it being slightly plasticy feeling, functionally it works great ( the monitor mixing took a few goes to get my head round but its actually very simple). I've got it in a flight case which it never leaves so not got a huge concern over breaking it, and so far very good. A much cheaper option especially if you're wanting to go IEMs as this will also be your headphone amp, and more "traditional" as it has actual faders. 

I think that is a good mixer and I would not worry about the plastic case.  I have had a number of Zoom products. And the plastic cases were not an issue.I wanted more inputs and a stagebox type mixer.

On 22/02/2024 at 13:42, Beedster said:

We're a small acoustic band so a little late to the digital mixer party, but having realised that we need better monitoring and want to record multiple tracks, and having read a lot of threads on here and elsewhere, it seems not only that a digital mixer is going to make life a whole lot easier on stage, but that in many cases it will be equally useful for recording in the studio possibly making traditional studio interfaces redundant? Where on this journey is this tech at present and which mixers represent the best option for stage and studio use?

Having gone through a similar quest myself, I eventually opted for the Allen & Heath CQ20. Now like the Soundcraft UI24, it has lots of inputs and outputs and does multitrack recording.  Sadly the Ui12 and Ui16 only record the main mix to a stereo pair. You could probably get away with the CQ12  although it does lack a few features. 
 

In all fairness, I almost went for the Ui24 but is is really overkill for my needs.

Having dealt with Andertons over several purchases in the last few years, I have to disagree. 
 

I have had to deal with their Customer Support dept over two puchases. One returned when I changed my mind and more recently, needed a change of of delivery address. It was so easy even though both issues were of my making. 

I once met a girl , easy it is not that sort of forum. Her father was head flautist for the London Philharmonic. 
 

We were invited back to her parents house to play some  records(vinyl). The HiFi included  a pair of Lowther drivers set in concrete on the floor with huge horns going up and over, finally pointed into the centre of the room. The sound from a tiny amplifier was immense BUT not many spouses would accept either the cost, building work and visual intrusion in the lounge. 

Now apart from reminiscing,  as with Bill’s post above, illustrates that you cannot judge a system either by the power or the look of a system.
 

My recent experience is that, in terms of power, 200-300watts RMS is fine. I will nod to the caveats above from Bill and Phil but just give you my recent experience.

Like @Phil StarrI have a thing about speakers and have far too many. Until recently, for vocals only, my band used my Ramsa ( Panasonic) WS-A200 tops. Often claimed at 250watts, a dig down into the spec shows that they weee really rated at 125 watts RMS. The sensitivity is 98dB and they were loud. Of course a big arena would not be ideal  for two of these. Other cost over £500 new and are between 20-30 years old. However at 16Kg and with no side handles they are too heavy/awkward to get on stands for me now.

Before lockdown, @Phil Starr organised what you could call jam sessions at Corley near Chard and I went to one. Phil was using a pair of old Wharfedsle Pro Titan 312 active speakers plus subs. I liked them and recently bought them. I did not go on spec, just my experience of them with 5 different bands/vocalists. 
 

I only looked at the specs recently and they are 150 Watts RMS for the woofer and 50 for the tweeter/compression driver. So a real wattage of 200. 
 

For vocals they sound great and are very loud (remember these were the days before exaggerated power claims).  These are probably 10 years old but in perfect working order. 
 

So what can we take from this? Use your ears not your eyes, either when looking at the cabinets or the specs. 
 

Now the caveats, I am not sure I woul put a lot of bass from/kick through any 12” top. Adding a single sub would be fine and it you control the lows(HPF) and the volume you might get away with putting the kick through your choice of tops. Others may have experience here that I do not. 
 

1 hour ago, bassbiscuits said:

I gigged a cheap 300-watt Ashdown MAG series head for years, so I wouldn’t dismiss 250w as too quiet. 
 

+ 1 on the Genz Benz 212tx. Great cabs, lightweight and about £350 secondhand if you can find one.

 

I wouldn’t bother spending money on boutique niche cabs. Plenty of good reasonable kit out there.  

 

Good luck with the quest!
 

 

I giiged a MAG 15” combo for years, it was fine then but I would not use it now. The head would be fine with a decent cab. What represents a decent cab is of course a matter of taste.

13 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

we were clearly out of physical "gig shape".

My band played a new club for us on Saturday, with a dep drummer. We have gigged three times since Xmas, but the last one was 3 weeks ago. This was a cut-price gig and was two 1 1/4 hours sets that inevitably turned into a 1 hour 20 and 1 hour 40. I found out again why we need to play every day. My fingers were raw at the end of the night. It was great fun, though (the masochist in me?). They want us back, but I think I will insist on our normal rate at least.

I thought I had a bad night, but the drummer said he found it easy to play along with me. Incidently, I have just bought the CQ20, first outing may be this Friday.

17 hours ago, basstone said:

The BC112

@stevie designed the BC112 and now runs LFSys. The Monaco and Silverstone cabs are the direct descendants of the BC112. One is more than enough. 
 

Pair that with most small class D heads and you are good to go. 

I remember using a delay on a female lead singer, 20mS sticks in my head but don't take that as any sort of guide. A little compression should not cause feedback unless it is too aggressive and the level is returned to uncompressed peak level. 

Saying that I am happy to learn from others.

On 13/03/2024 at 09:07, Phil Starr said:

a man who hates any hint of echo but sounds better with it

Most of us do. Can you send it wet to FoH and dry to his monitor?

On 11/03/2024 at 21:48, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

suspect it's compensation for a certain physical...shortcoming. 😲

Yes but it’s in the head not in the trousers/pants. As others have said, we have our share of those with sub-optimal IQs. 

 I understand that if @Frank Blank does not attend this year’s bash, the world will end at midnight October 41st. 

Had these been available a few months ago I would have been in like a shot but the coffee went all over my laptop keyboard…..

Other things have also depleted the GAS fund😭