MiltyG565

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1366324776' post='2051215'] I totally agree, but this is what confuses me about your stance on this - a couple of months ago, you were saying that 'maple is bright' and 'wenge and mahogany are bassier woods' but now you are adamant that tonewoods 'don't make one iota of difference'. What has changed your mind so drastically in so short a time? You seem so sure, even though there have been no scientific tests. [/quote] Those things are still true, just not in the instance that we are talking about.

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366318106' post='2051128'] Yes, instruments are tools. That is true. To me fretboard material is extremely important. I just cannot live with Ebony, Cocobolo or composite boards...and I especially hate Maple. I much prefer the way that Rosewood sounds, feels and responds. This hearing, feeling and responding is what makes me a sentient being. I have found MY ideal through experience and have little need for scientific dissection of my art. Everyone is different and that is as it should be. If you do then good luck. We shall agree to disagree. [/quote] Well you've just agreed that the guitar is the tool, so it wouldn't be dissection of your art, just the tools of it. But OK, agreeing to disagree.

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366316590' post='2051092'] Sorry that you feel ganged up on old boy, but I am simply stating my point of view...in the same way as you are. The fact that you cannot hear or feel the difference, and that you are looking at it from a scientific, evidential perspective leads me to believe that you don't have a particularly good ear for musical nuances. Also, If you cannot differentiate between art and science then that says it all really. Do you play music in a scientific or emotional way...or both? Anyway, its all good. You are entitled to believe whatever you like....I disagree, but that is what makes us all different. [/quote] Again, you've made incorrect assumptions based on what I have written here. I love science and music, and science is useful to explain things, and music is good to express things. The guitars are the tools in this process. But since people insist on saying that the fretboard material is such an important part of the sound, the only way to really find out is under scientific conditions. I don't see how that tells you anything about my views on music. My hypothesis is that the fretboard doesn't contribute much to the sound of the guitar, as the sound is picked up by an electric magnetic pickup installed on the guitar. Your hypothesis is that it makes a huge difference. who's right? Well, there's really only one way to say for sure (FIIIIGHT!), a scientific experiment. That's not the same as saying "Gee, I really love music. What I like most about it is how the strings are magnetically charged to interfere with the magnetic field of the electro magnetic pickup on the guitar, creating a charge that then gets turned into a sound".

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1366316179' post='2051082'] Ah the herd mentality, this is democracy in action. Its like trying to fight a mudslide. You can state your case but beyond that, let it wash over you. [/quote] Yup. Unfortunately, I'm not one to start a mudslide then just walk away from it

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366316077' post='2051079'] This thread is about the different sounds that woods make. Hence the name. Avoiding answering a question as to being able to hear the difference between the tones of two pieces of wood pretty much indicates the value of your contribution to a thread such as this. [/quote] It wasn't relevant to the discussion that you, I, Yann and White Cloud were taking part in. I never said that woods don't sound different, therefore, it wasn't a relevant question.

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1366315340' post='2051067'] Genius Also, my old strat is now on it's 5th neck, every time I have swapped necks the sound has changed completely, it started out with an old hofner neck, that was seriously old and hard. Also had a tele shaped headstock, and sounded super jangly and harsh, like a tele. Then it had a softer neck with a rosewood fretboard, and sounded mellower, fatter and altogether bassier. After that it got a maple neck with a seperate maple board on it, and was somewhere between the two. Next up came another ancient thing from a teisco, which was back like that old hofner neck, though not the same. Finally it now sports a 90s japanese Squire one piece maple neck, which sounds different from all these again. I'm not saying the wood type made any difference at all, but all those different bits of wood were attached to the same body and pickups and sounded utterly different, even through a bucketload of distortion and fuzz. Scientific enough? [/quote] No. You've told us about the fretboard. There's no way the nut could be the same on every one. The setup was also bound to vary a little. And that's assuming you used the exact same strings over the life of the guitar, and amp, and lead. This isn't about the acoustic sound, it's about the amplified sound.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366315204' post='2051063'] It was a simple question, and nothing to do with fingerboards. You simply didn't answer it. You continue to throw around irrelevances as an excuse. All those factors were eliminated in that very simple video. Straight comparison of two pieces of wood, sounding different to my ears at least, and a simple question as to whether they sounded different to you, but you stall until someone else has the answer then parrot it. [/quote] Yes, of course I heard a difference, but that was never the point. I've never once said that woods don't have different sounds. If we are allowed to just throw in random questions - Who makes the best marmalade?

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366314790' post='2051058'] Your hearing may be very good...but how musical are you Milty? You see, many musicians are artists...and do not get hung up on "science". Art has no rules. I know that my hearing is extremely acute from experience as a musician playing at a very high standard and level with other top class musicians. In fact, I would assert that, with no sense of egotism, that I am a very gifted musician. ..therefore I know my hearing is not "terrible". I accept that you have backed yourself into a corner on this thread, and therefore can never compromise publicly in any way ....and that's okay. You are entitled to your personal opinions. The truth is the truth regardless. [/quote] What you are saying now is "Well, ok, maybe your hearing isn't terrible, but this is art, fellow!" What does that even mean? I'm not hearing things the right way now? I'm hearing them right but interpreting them wrong? The only way to settle it is by using a scientific approach, and you know it. My musicality has little to do with it, especially since you have just conceded that my hearing in fact isn't terrible. I've been picking out sounds and zoning in on certain sounds for as long as I can remember. I can hear my phone charge for goodness sake. I can hear it connect to wireless internet. What you are forgetting, is that at 20, my hearing is probably better than yours. I have no idea what age any of you are, but i'm fairly confident that I am at least 10 years younger than any of you. I have not backed myself in to any corner. At the very least, i've been ganged up on, as tends to happen on here from time to time. I have said that I would admit that I am wrong given the proper evidence, but as it stands, I have heard or seen nothing that would make me change my mind. The usual thing for you to state here is my lack of "experience", but I can assure you that i know what I hear. I've owned at least 15 basses and 5 guitars, and listened to many many different sounds, but never have I heard a rosewood fretboard on a guitar or bass, and a maple fretboard on a guitar or bass that changes the way that guitar or bass actually sounds. And as i've said, there might be a slight difference between the sound of them, but you have to eliminate as much variance between the instruments as possible, and I haven't seen that yet. It may be art, but that does not give you some magic power to declare what "the truth" is because I have a different opinion. For all we know so far, and in my own personal opinion, what I am saying is "the truth".

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366314373' post='2051047'] The part where a comparison of two sounds was posted, and you claimed to not be able to hear anything. Pretty much covers it. [/quote] What, those 2 little bits of wood? I never claimed that. I know that woods sound different, even when they are the same species. My argument is that the wood used in the fretboard doesn't make a difference or get picked up by the pickup. Those 2 strats was a good example. Yes, there was a slight difference in sound, that's difficult to deny, but it doesn't show that the difference in the fretboard material is the reason for that. That might seem like the obvious thing, but are the pickups the same age? Do they have the same output? the same magnetic strength? Are the pots the same brand? Have the pots on one guitar been used more than the other? Are the strings the same age? same brand? same gauge? is the nut the same material? There are just too many unknowns to say whether that incredibly slight difference in sound was due to the difference in fretboard material.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366313650' post='2051029'] Point proven. [/quote] How? [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366313705' post='2051031'] Excuse me my friend, but it was certainly not a personal attack in any way shape or form! We all have strengths and weaknesses. As a musician I am very lucky...genetically I have been gifted with an exceptionally good ear for musical sounds/nuances...many are not as lucky. From observing your interaction with others on this topic it has become apparent that you are having difficulty actually hearing that which is audible to others. As for your frequent references to God...that is perhaps not a place you should go on a forum such as this. [/quote] My hearing is very good, thank you. You can't tell from what I say here that my hearing is bad just because you disagree with what I am saying. How do I know that your hearing isn't terrible? Well it must be, you think i'm wrong. See how it works?

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366312402' post='2051007'] With all due respect, I would suggest that you actually don't have a very good ear! [/quote] What an insult. Why are people resorting to personal attacks? I'm trying to keep things scientific. Because you believe you hear a sound that I don't, I must just be deaf? Honestly, this is why I said earlier, it's becoming like debating whether God exists. There's no proof for me that says the material of the fretboard makes any difference whatsoever to the amplified sound of say, a stratocaster, for the sake of argument. I do believe that somebody with your "experience" might have fooled themselves a little into believing their is a difference, because that is what they want to hear. [quote name='yann' timestamp='1366312751' post='2051015'] Hey Milty, can you hear any difference here? : [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8oyi3yg1rE&list=UU1wEVFBAuq6kr-n9KgmwJGA&index=11[/media] [/quote] I never once said that wood doesn't sound different, that's absurd. Banging to different pieces of wood off a little block doesn't disprove what i've said though. I don't believe that the material if the fretboard makes a noticeable difference to the overall amplified sound of an electric guitar or bass. Did you guys watch the video I linked? Those 2 strats sounded very similar. Yes, there was a slight difference to the sound, but were they built at the same time? do the pickups have the same output? Are the electrical components made using the same materials? See, that's the only way this will ever be solved. 2 guitars, built as similarly as possible. If they are made years apart in different factories, forget it. It's not a scientific test.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366311820' post='2050997'] You need to do that to verify your assertion that there is a lack of difference. The fact that two guitars will sound different is proof that the acoustic properties of a guitar makes a difference. The mere fact that the 'exact same' part is necessary to eliminate variables is down to the entirely correct assumption that being different makes a difference. [/quote] What i'm saying is that the 2 guitars need to be exactly the same, other than the wood on the fretboard. I mean as close to identical as could be, including setup, output of pickups, strength of pickups, amount of wire used between pots, the pots themselves. All of these things need to be the same. then, the 2 guitars need to be played through the same amp with the same EQ and everything, and we need to have a blind test, just so that we know that our eyes aren't fooling our brains, and if there genuinely is a difference, i'll admit I'm wrong, but so far, in any sound samples i have heard or conducted myself, there's be a negligible difference, which in all probability is more likely to be down to the electronics.

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366310481' post='2050968'] Oh...and there is no substitute for experience btw. Yes, you do know what you hear...but have you considered that you may not be very good at hearing? [/quote] Wow, MEOW! Put those claws away

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366310481' post='2050968'] 100% totally incorrect on all points. You honestly cannot hear the difference between a Rosewood and a Maple board?!?!? You have never heard an electric bass that sounded good unplugged......Really??? Honestly Milty, you are completely entitled to your opinion - but it is an entirely wrong one. Oh...and there is no substitute for experience btw. Yes, you do know what you hear...but have you considered that you may not be very good at hearing? [/quote] Nope. There is no difference between a maple fretboard and a rosewood one. They sound exactly the same in an electric guitar or bass. Do you have 2 of the exact same instrument, one with maple and one with rosewood for the fretboard to verify that they do sound the same? There's no difference in the sound of these 2 guitars that couldn't be explained by a slight variance in the electronic components of this guitar. I didn't even watch this video, I just listened. There's the slightest difference between the 2, only the slightest difference, but nothing here that says that it's anything other than the variance of the electronic components of these guitars. It's all in the mind. you convince yourself they sound different because of what you see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQffNqkx-mM

[quote name='seashell' timestamp='1366309813' post='2050952'] I too would love to learn Freebird! I know it's a bit of a cliche for some of our friends on here who are sick to death of playing it in coverd bands. But it is such a classic I would love to do it some day. I have been playing for 2 years now, so maybe I'm halfway there! I have looked at the sheet music, but it's so bloody long I (temporarily) gave up. This thread has inspired me to get it out and have another bash at it! 2015, here I come! [/quote] I've been playing for 2 years, and looked at it about 18 months ago Before you feel bad, I must declare that I could only manage about 2 bars, even though the start is at 60bpm.

The bass in my avatar is an OLP with a basswood body, and It sounds really good plugged in, but less so acoustically.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366300059' post='2050775'] This lack of experience is probably why you make so many flawed assertions in this thread. [/quote] I've played plenty of instruments, which includes high end instruments, and none of them sound good acoustically. They might sound good acoustically for an electric, but not when compared to an actual acoustic guitar or bass.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366298844' post='2050746'] If you electric guitar is not plugged into anything electric, it is an acoustic instrument. And surprisingly enough, if you make one to sound really nice acoustically, it correspondingly sounds really nice electrically with minimal electrical trickery. [/quote] I've never come across an electric instrument tthatt sounds good acoustically though. They quite often sound good plugged in though.

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1366297278' post='2050715'] And the construction, bridge and nut design, etc. etc. Otherwise the 4 different guitars I have put my favourite set of old Dimarzio pickups in would all have sounded the same. Which they didn't. I am agreeing with you on the whole Milty, just you seem to have gone too far the other way. Oli is right (he very often is) [/quote] Yes, I'd said so earlier in the thread that the nut and bridge also make a difference to the sound. [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366296980' post='2050709'] Acoustics of an instrument matter. You can render an electric instrument acoustic via a very simple process: unplug it from an amp. Then you can find how they sound different to each other, even though the electronics are not making a contribution, aside from the magnetic pull of the pickups on the strings. Also, the acoustics still matter when plugged in, since feedback is an acoustic phenomenon, and fairly significant to some styles of playing. The mistake people make is in assuming the label applied to the wood determines its good or bad acoustic properties, and that is not the case. The acoustic properties of an instrument are fairly individual, not derived from 'being mahogany'. Manufactured electric instruments use woods that are reasonably consistent for that reason, it is pretty important, but occasionally you just get a bad sounding one, and it just isn't worth applying the electronics to try and get a good sound from bad acoustics. [/quote] In my opinion, electric instruments tend to sound completely rubbish acoustically anyway. And acoustic instrument is the only one that sounds anyway decent acoustically.

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1366295548' post='2050677'] Noooo! This is no fun. This kinda stuff must just be enjoyed or disliked without any further info or explanation. It was just that I asked how you make one like that, with the white not coming up on top. Obviously everyone thinks of the coffee right away. Then the second sentence discloses that I "actually" wanted to learn how one makes a toast without the white coming on top. I aimed for a little smile, but got a thread. Happily though no-one died in the process. best, bert [/quote] Haha I'm not that Bright, Bert, you need to make these things abundantly obvious to me!

I can say, in all honesty, without a hint of trepidation, that a rosewood fretboard does not sound any different from a maple fretboard. Not even acoustically. I've played a lot of instruments, and heard a lot of good sounds, but i know for a fact that the wood used for the fretboard does not make 1 iota of difference to the sound. But this is very much like debating whether God exists now. The only difference the wood in the body of a solid bodied electric guitar will ever make is if used acoustically. Even then, it's negligible. Solid bodied electric weren't meant to be played acoustically. That is why the only parts that matter in the sound you hear are the strings and electronics. I might not have your experience, Yann, but I do know what I hear.

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1366293891' post='2050642'] I think you missed the innuendo first time [/quote] Yes, I think so too... I'm still missing it...

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1366285245' post='2050470'] No! No! On the plate beside it! There! With the knife! If I try to make one, the white comes on top. b, b [/quote] eh? It's just toast... Norwegians are weird...

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366270402' post='2050241'] Ηaha...as i said boy,you just can't confuse me,i'm a proven luthier,and i know what i'm saying... -Keep in mind there's serious professionals out there,and might be reading what we write here,someone will "correct" me if what i say is wrong! -Ever heard of "expression" in playing? This and only,makes acoustics and electrics (and all in between) the same ball game... and that's where tonewoods do a serious job on electrics too,the response of an inst is not controlled only by pus and electronics! [/quote] Ok, make 2 basses. Make one with your tone woods, and one without, and completely the same otherwise, then upload sound samples of both so I can hear the difference. I trust you not to make adjustments to the EQ or anything like that to artificially change the sound so it appears different. If you can prove me wrong, i'll hold my hands up and admit that I was wrong. I understand perfectly well that some woods have more resonant qualities than others, I am a timber man myself, but what I do contest is the notion that a little block of mahogany inside a musicman makes any difference to the sound whatsoever. Does a rosewood fretboard sound different from a maple fretboard? No, it doesn't. They sound the same. And finally, your "expression" comment. Basically, what I took from that was "Well, it doesn't matter anyway, because expression is what makes the sound so acoustics and electrics are the same". Sorry, no. Don't write me off on the fact that I am 20. That's ageism, and stereotyping. See me for who I am, not my age. That's a low tactic.

Apparently I don't need to try hard to confuse you, because you're just going off in a tangent to my point and making ridiculous assumptions, like "It makes a difference in an acoustic instrument, so why not a solid bodied electric?". As established, acoustic instruments are a different ball game, and making them sound different isn't difficult, nearly everything changes how they sound, even the glue they use, and the humidity.