drTStingray

28 minutes ago, Rumple said:

I like the idea, I'm not sure about white and gold or that price tag though!

Nod to late 50s Precisions (adonised pick guard, white body)? 

They sold out in a few hours!! Price obviously not a problem to some people. The regular Joe Dart bass now available in satin black also. 

Yes I think it sounds great (in his hands) - short scale no controls - Wow!!

Great colour combo as well. According to the video, production funded by Jack S as well. 

3 hours ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

Over at TB, Scott Ball wrote in late April:

"I think we have two basses next drop that bling... Kingpin - Stingray 4 and Crescendo - Bongo 5."

Someone then asked when these would be shown and Scott answered:

"July. Stingray 4 HH Kingpin is "Black". Crescendo Bongo 5 HH is "White"

These sound interesting (especially the Bongo). Let’s hope they’re available via The Vault!! 

To add to HKH’s post, there’s nothing wrong with bass players being able to play a 12 bar with consistent root 8th notes at metronomic tempo. Or Rock and roll bass parts similarly. 

I once learned the bass part to Pictures of Matchstick Men - and then realised it was the very early use of phase on the bass which created that ‘psychedelic’ feel (along with the way the group had been dressed when they appeared on TOTP). Not a bad bass part as well!!

Funny how musical snobbery can result in quite interesting things being totally overlooked - I also agree they were a great rock and roll band - I have on vinyl Down The Dustpipe (single) and Piledriver (album) from their first release.

They were also trendsetters for a lot of shuffle rhythm based music in the 70s - like it or not, from Abba (Waterloo) to Wizzard (various), to Mud, Suzy Quattro, The Sweet etc etc. 

I suspect worshipping them is a tad too far in my book but they have a lot of fans that do!!! 
 

2 hours ago, bubinga5 said:

Pop isn't what it used to be, but that's a whole other rabbit hole. Vid for reference 😎

 

Nice bass on this - back in the days when it was mixed at a decent volume - none if this ‘bass should be felt but not heard nonsense 😂)!! However I disagree with you - from what I hear on the car radio these days there’s some really nice pop stuff around currently (eg Dua Lipa) - I guess it depends on individual taste.

I was first subjected to the Spice Girls album when my daughter had it - along with En Vogue, All Saints and a string of others (Take That and Backstreet Boys were others). I thought they often had interesting bass parts as well! 
 

Thanks for posting - perfect bass sound! 

7 minutes ago, EMG456 said:

I changed to full range cabs in the early 80s but up to that time and after a never ending gear quest for a decent sound, the Acoustic 370 paired with the 1x18 301 cab was streets ahead of anything else I had come across. Effortless, big sound and surprisingly easy to move with its tiltback castors and handles. Unless there were stairs.

Absolutely!!! And they were around from the early 70s.

As I said, the only downside was they produced chest crushing bass and low mid some distance away and especially at the back of a theatre, but did not necessarily produce focussed higher end detail. These were expensive new though - mine was bought used. 

Prior to that I'd used the more affordable HH with a 1 X 15 Carlsboro - not as good as the Acoustic and far less powerful - a very good rig for the medium sided or small room was the Acoustic with the Carlsboro. 

44 minutes ago, peteb said:

I think it was in the mid 80s with companies like SWR and Trace Elliot. Of course, before that there was the classic Ampeg 810 fridge. 

Agreed - I remember trying out a new TE set up at Soundwave Bassplace, Romford - it had a built in effect based on a chorus IIRC. 

As a UK bass player, at the time of sourcing my Acoustic rig, the only Ampegs listed in classifieds (which usually meant the classified pages of the Melody Maker), the only Ampegs I saw were V4Bs. I don't know when the SVT/8 X 10 fridge became a thing but I guess they were fearsomely expensive - I would have though the 8 X 10 was a stadium type thing and from the 80s. I don't recall seeing them used in the UK in that era. Maybe they were a US thing at the time. 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

That's true.

I can if you want go into long and mind numbing detail on the science but as @Dad3353 says it has been done before

In the days when Jimi was still alive and Marshall stacks were the go-to for guitarists there was a reason for the 18. Sheer volume and efficiency. Valve amps were heavy and expensive and the early transistor amps under powered and unreliable. Speakers generally had low power handling, at one point 12's would handle something like 25-30W only. PA's available to most bands were incapable of handling bass so the back line was used to reach even quite big audiences. Lots of cone area increases the amount of sound you get per watt and big cones are not only usually deeper but louder. To get bass heard live over 100W of guitar through two 4x12's you needed big speakers, lots of 10's or huge elaborate horn designs. 18's have gone not because they were 'bad' but because we don't need them. A single 12 will let you hear yourself and the PA can do the rest, any more than that simply ends up going through the vocal mic line and messing everyone's sound. 

Huge speakers look good though

I never experienced any problems using 1970s transistor amps - they produced (relatively) clean sound. Bands like Led Zeppelin used Acoustic, along with many R and B and reggae bands (eg The Wailers). Unless you're talking those early Vox transistor amps re reliability (1960s). It was only when I moved away from valve amps I could actually hear myself in a band situation with keyboards etc!!

A interesting thing about 18 in speaker cabs and technology, Jet Harris in the early 60s used an 18 in speaker loaded cabinet - the cabinet loaded with sand to dampen the sound - for recording!!! 

When did 4 X 10s become generally available? I don't recall them in the late 70s - they were a must to get a decent slap sound in the 80s and tweeters help as well. 

If you look at video of famous rock acts in the late 60s you will see bass players using 4 X 12s with large valve amps (eg Free - using Orange - with a phenomenal bass sound). Others used Marshalls (I recall particularly Leo Lyons used 2 X Marshall 100 or 200 heads, with 4 X 4 X 12). 

I think reggae acts particularly liked 1 X 18s as thunderous low end is a must in that genre. However 1 X 18 should be fine unless you want to project high end detail or nuance. 

2 hours ago, triplebass said:

Never owned or played 18” until recently, any love out there for these huge things in the 12orless” world? They don’t come up so much used and they seem to be out of Thomann’s catalogue, are they still being made?

I picked one up a couple of weeks ago (90’s USA Ampeg, roadworn but working flawlessly, cost 100 including gas) and i’m loving it. I don’t mind the weight and size yet as i’m using it at home only ATM and it sounds great, even at low volume for the midnight noodle it has plenty of super silent and super deep fatness

So my question for all the experienced 18”ers: do this 18” hold it’s own live or is a 10 or 12” on top a must?

I know my back will say no, but i hope the sound will make it worth it... or will i start hating it after the first gig?

I used one for a number of years (it was an Acoustic 301 with a 1 X 18 reflex cab. One misnomer which can be answered immediately is it was plenty loud enough to hear what I was playing - the real issue was it projected a low mid range/bassy sound and all the upper end was lost (even though I could hear it fine). This was late 70s/early 80s and I really wanted a crisp tone. However it certainly rattled the optics on low notes (notably detuned to D) in one or two large pubs (with a 2 band Stingray and the 400 watt Acoustic 370 amp)!! 

I use a 2 X 10 now (or 2 X 2 X 10) live with a slightly more powerful but class D amp - there is no lack of heft and the tone is crisp and full (and plenty bassy and loud enough).

So I know which I prefer - but there again I prefer music with bass mixed a la 70s/80s/90s with plenty of mid range, bass and crisp top end. 

6 hours ago, Sibob said:

That's one dusty/dry looking fretboard!

Si

The fretboard on these is ebony - it's probably the lighting (to bring out the sparkle) that makes it look like that. My Ray Specials (both ebony boards) range from looking shiny to dry dependent on light.  Only the neck (not fretboard) is roasted 😀

On 27 April 2021 at 21:37, LukeFRC said:

sooo... I really dislike that fin
ish on the stingray special or 5 ... 
but it looks nice on the bongo - it seems to burst to brown on the edge - whereas the rays burst to black on further in. 

But hey ho - we don't all need to like thee same thing do we? 

 

  

I think that looks great - it will be the lighting in the Stingray pictures which makes the edge look black - I have a blue dawn Stingray that is a metallic turquoise blue burst - the edges vary between appearing black, dark blue or purple dependent on the angle and intensity of the light. 

That harvest orange looks great with the transition to brown on the Bongo. 

10 hours ago, pineweasel said:

I don't believe Stingrays are made by a small tight-knit team of highly experienced craftsmen. Apart from the size, Fender's Corona plant and EBMM's SLO factory are surely pretty similar: semi-skilled, low paid factory workers building the same sort of products out of the same materials, using the same machinery and techniques.

Team built Fender Custom Shop guitars, as I understand, are low volume, production line instruments with a level of manual selection and possibly input to assembly, such as materials - an example being the Pino Precision bass. Masterbuilt (put together by a craftsman) are a completely different and considerably higher price point - it's notable that many of the options on the Custom Shop build sheets for CS versions of standard guitars result in the guitar requiring to be a masterbuilt one (and thus into the much higher price range).

Im not aware of the standard US Fender manufacturing offering hand selected or higher cost woods etc etc - they all look to be standard to me - they are simply assembled at volume in the US rather than in a lower labour cost region, and often being a slightly higher spec, than say a Mexican version - the team built CS is a step up from that, and the masterbuilt is assembled/ built/parts selected by a named craftsman. 

The lower volume manufacturers, like Musicman, PRS etc etc offer instruments (particularly guitars) which have a higher spec than the standard stuff produced by the big manufacturers - AIUI we are talking vastly different levels of production also. 

For some people here, and because Musicman and Rickenbacker, for instance, produce basses as iconic as Fender and Gibson, assume the prices should be on a par - however Fender, for instance, is in a much higher volume market which makes a big difference (and basses are a small proportion when compared to guitars).

Thus comparing the prices in that way is really not valid as they are aiming at different market segments -  but with obvious overlaps - in spite of this I agree some of the prices  of these instruments are higher than I would like to see - anyone looked at the price of a new Rickenbacker recently?). 

AFAIK Musicman has reduced production for Covid related reasons. The worldwide cost of shipping has also increased massively, along with delays.

My only disagreement with your post really is comparing US Fender with Musicman - the truer comparison is with Fender US Custom Shop (team built) as that involves a similar level of manual input, and much of Musicman's guitar output is using figured maple, for instance, which may increase costs. I wasn't really talking build quality - although I agree Fender US has had improved quality for some while now. So have all the cheaper level instruments from non US production. 

I also like G and L (apart from not getting on with the MFD pickups) and have never really understood why such bargains are to be had with their instruments, especially second hand.

I don't really understand how Fender could have had it's best year for sales last year (in a Global pandemic affecting production and some elements of shipping) from a supply angle unless the majority of instruments sold were either already with retailers, making them less affected as immediately, by current conditions or they, somehow are able to absorb more of the cost increase, production downturn (unless the manual input is minimal) and can respond to increased demand in the light of the issues mentioned. Otherwise it doesn't add up. 

We will just have to wait and see whether some brands have been able to insulate in the longer term,  consumers from the pandemic and related (or in some cases not) issues affecting costs. 

42 minutes ago, rodney72a said:

Something like this, perhaps? 😎

Aha - an SR5 prototype 😎 indeed like that!! 👍

6 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Having said that, I remember Bass Direct had one of those in stock as I saved the photo.

I don’t recall it being referred to as a BFR though, but it may well have been. Perhaps they all are? Memory again may not be serving me well, but I seem to remember the price as £2799.

It was a BFR - the Bass Direct price was actually two or three hundred lower than the Andertons price (they still had a couple of them advertised last time I looked). 

4 hours ago, kyuuga said:

Honestly, it all boils down to consumer's perspective. To me, a mass-produced bass should NEVER be worth more than 2.000£. 

I think the Stingray Specials are a notch above the USA made Fenders and I believe they should be more expensive but right now the Stingrays are ALMOST DOUBLE the price of a USA Fender. That is just bonkers, no matter how you put it or what excuses they give.

The US Fenders truly are mass produced instruments - Musicman are more on a par with PRS, Rickenbacker or US Custom Shop Fenders (team built) - they certainly contain as much manual input and finishing and are not high volume in the Fender/Gibson sense - these really are the Fords of the instrument world. 

So you're really not comparing apples with apples and we all know that the prices of those types I've mentioned are actually on a par with one another.

We also know that Fender's business model included parking vast quantities of instruments with retailers (indeed they would have to accept this to be dealers). Do we even know whether we've seen the true, 2021 Fender instrument prices in the UK or are we still talking sale of historic warehouse or dealer stock? 

Seeing all the other Covid related, supply chain related, shipping related issues (see other threads for people's problems getting items shipped to/from abroad, including the US), I'm not surprised prices have gone up - I'm not happy about it but that's the way it is - simple economics - short supply = higher prices. 

We'll just have to stump up more for these instruments in the future or do without them - and I won't be doing the latter!! 

PS the Stingray Special design was 2018 - whilst the 4 string is based on the 1976 design/ shape there are a vast number  of differences - but retaining enough of the original design - so the sparkly colours are a different (in my view pretty good) set of colours on a three year old product. 

Sparkly coloured Stingrays first appeared around 2000, but weren't produced for long - and lamented by Stingray fans after - I think they listened to the market introducing them on the 2018 Stingray Specials (along with other more traditional colours).  

5 hours ago, TheGreek said:

For those with the £3k to buy a new MM wouldn't you be better "investing" in the earliest model you could find? Vintage MMs are selling for about that currently.

You're right - BUT it's a different thing really - vintage just doesn't appeal greatly to me (I guess it's a bit like cars - there are those willing to take the big depreciation hit for the privilege of having a new car; those who always buy nearly new used to avoid that; those who buy what they can afford - and those who like classic cars and are willing to own one (to be clear I like them - in fact there are a couple of models id love to have but can't take on the responsibility of keeping them roadworthy and wouldn't be willing to use them as day to day transport) 

6 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

You may to wait until I’m gone and you can haggle with Mrs.H over that one 😜
I do feel very fortunate to have stumbled across this one when I did.

Well if you ever change your mind.... 😀 the inca silver/black neck/pick guard combo looks great - strings through as well I'm guessing (even more sustain......oops what have I said 😂)!! 

4 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Ten years ago £700 would have been a market value, not a bargain which is what most of us are after. Still, if it feels right it's worth every penny.

To indicate how far off piste you are with this, I found the attached invoice from 2010 the other day.... £700 for a new MM bass in 2010 would have been less than a new one in the early 90s so was an absolute bargain!! 

I'm pretty sure there is a whole range of variables which affect the general sound of a particular bass guitar design (I too have noticed a slight difference with stainless steel frets - stainless steel strings definitely make a difference). 

Goimg back to the discussion a few posts back about rigidity of construction v resonance - my most resonance (perceived) is a natural ash Stingray 5 with a maple board - it is also the heaviest bass guitar I have - it's construction involves a six bolt neck joint and the body wood is covered with poly finish - the neck is finished with the finest coating of oil and wax finish (so is almost bare) with a thin matt coat of poly at the headstock. The construction is absolutely rock solid, yet acoustically the body of that bass is exceedingly resonant to the point you can feel the vibrations - if you hold the upper horn it resonates (vibrates) a lot - this is all acoustically. Plug it in and the tone and growl is fabulous - a number of other musicians (bassists and others) have commented on it - I have other similar basses which don't have this level of resonance or once plugged in, tone and growl (I believe the growl is partially coming from the resonance of the construction). 

Obviously basses which are neck through avoid the neck joint and may also behave differently as a result. 

I think the bass I've been talking about may just have a very resonant piece of body wood - I've attached a pic for reference...

2 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

I had no problem purchasing one in February. That's because all the 'plastic' cyclists will start to come out in Spring and snap everything up. 😂

There are warning notices in Halfords regarding supply issues on bikes. I know of people who've been waiting months to get hold of certain mid- upper end ones as no retailers have them and won't give delivery dates - a bit like some types of basses!!! 

I think these new colours are great and if it wasn't for the fact I already have Stingray Specials in great colours I would be in the market for one of these, in spite of the current prices. They certainly aren't out of step with other low volume high end stuff (Rick, dare I say, Fender CS) - I think we have to remember the world's changed for the reasons mentioned - anyone tried to buy a bike (pedal type) recently? They can be very hard to come by - same with parts of firms like Ikea's range - you'll find some items are fine others not available. Covid has affected production - allegedly Fender had their best year for sales ever - one wonders if that was caused by people buying stuff that had been parked in retailer's warehouses for ages, unless Covid didn't affect them the same way it has everyone else - there certainly seem to be general supply chain issues and shipping issues for goods across the board. 

Im reminded I paid £375 for my brand new pre EB Stingray in 1980 - it'd be worth £2750+ now!! Used prices tend to reflect how quickly people want to sell. £800 is a daft price for a 1991 Stingray!! 

I also have a Bongo and I'm reminded it's sat in its case - I'd better get it out and put one of the Rays away !!! 

I have been mildly tempted by basses in the EBMM vault - notably the Joe Dart - if EBMM want to issue another Stingray variant in one of these posh colours with a graphite neck I would probably buy one - unless any Members here want to sell me one 😏 Has to be a factory variant though - I know of at least one @hiram.k.hackenbacker 👍😂

Conversely an artist series Tony Levin 5 string (or Pino fretless) if EBMM are planning anything like that!! 

59 minutes ago, leschirons said:

Mon père est un éboueur, il porte un chapeau d'éboueur.

I wasn't expecting the 'My old man's a dustman' gag!! 😂

59 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

J'aime mieux 'Qui Sera Roi..?', mais tous les goûts sont dans la nature. 

First @ped mentioned cake, but what do you guys think you're doing mentioning Jam Roly Poly

25 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

Oh no...Big Rog is at it...

Thankfully at least he's one person who's hearing is capable of hearing the difference between different types of wood - however I started a thread on this once before - does the type of rug ,,in use,, (on the floor) make a difference and which is best for (,,rock,,) 😀👍

I think it's wonderful so many of us can have such widely differing views - it makes for healthy debate - although as always, it's very obvious so many are wrong 😂 😬😧👍 

A tone and wood related thing that's always really perplexed me - as some of you know, I've been around for a while and clearly remember people who should've known putting forward the view back in 1975 (and I'm really paraphrasing here) that an alder/rosewood combination from 1962 was that much better than a 5 yr old combination on the same instrument model - as a bit of a rebellious (almost) teenager I thought this was complete bo**ocks - I understand these days people say the same thing and I must say I still can't hear any vast difference (perhaps the electrical bits have deteriorated this giving a 'mellower' sound - however I understand the proponents now state it's because the wood has dried out etc etc. Not sure what the difference was in 1975 as such instruments were only 13 yrs old then!!! So I haven't changed my mind after all these years on this subject 😂😂

Now put a maple board and ash body on the same type of bass - yes I can hear the difference then!!!! 

Just a little anecdote to assist the naysayers 😏

@hiram.k.hackenbacker I think the original has a lot of 'revving up' type slides on it.

Whats interesting is that even if the fills are punched in it is more than possible to reproduce this live without missing any of them - the bits of slapping and high unison fills with the brass all have a similar tone id say (however unless those brass parts were in place before the bass part was done - (and especially the high unison bit), you would think those bits were punched in). Conversely some of this could have been played and recorded live. 

Thanks for posting these @Bart Funk Bass - they're always really interesting. This one is played so much tidier than one or two of the late 70s/earlier 80s famous parts you've posted (notably Rock With You)!!