Bilbo

Say, Dood, where are you playing the big 7? I am in Felixstowe!

ARGH - many thanks for your erudite and considered response. Your points are noted and fully accepted. I think the problem here is me. I used to be a bass nerd, buying Bass Player magazine every month, drooling over gear I couldn't afford, looking for faster and faster soloists (Jeff Berlin, Jaco, Patitucci, Haslip etc) etc but, as I have got older (I'm 44), I began to listen to the music a lot more and not the technique. As I got more and more involved in it, I began to even move away from the instruments themselves and started to listen to the music as pure expression. I began to realise that the instrument on which a piece is performed (and this is not genre specific) is important only in as much as the sound it creates defines the timbre of the notes played on it. If the music is good (subjective, I know), the instrument it is played on disappears! An example would be 1960's big bands using the electric bass. The walking bass lines were often more of a 'ping, ping, ping' than a 'doom, doom, doom' and they stood out like a sore thumb; ugly and brash. The electric bass got a bad press in jazz for that and is still trying to live it down. As intruments and (probably more importantly, amps and speakers) have improved, this problem has all but disappeared and it is now perfectly credible for an electric bass to drive a big band in a sonically satisfying way. Now when I listen to a big band with an electric bass (I do occasionally play in one), the bass fits better in the overall sound and, consequently, disappears! I can now listen to the MUSIC the band are playing. I guess that, where ERBs are concerned, I am still hearing the technology. That Manring track I mentioned, Selene, sounds like music, not just (just?) a bass player doing strange things with a bass. Am I making sense (I clearly lack ARGH's ability to express myself)? I actually agree very much with what is being said about thios being early days for the ERB crowd. I actually think that the electric bass is still only now beginning to find a grudging acceptance within the 'serious' jazz fraternity (as opposed to the jazz/funk fusion circle). I only play electric bass but still lose gigs to double bass players with only rudimentary technique simply because they HAVE a double bass. If they were sh*t hot, I'd say fine but they ain't. Anyway, to all you ERBists (I DO like that word), good luck, I wish you well and will be listening for many years to come. If any of you ever get your instruments over to Suffolk, I'll be in the front row.

I agree re: past loves - I have a HUGE soft spot for some of these guys and still look out for them and their products. Geddy Lee was a favorite for a long time but I have a wider perspective than I did then. I'd still like to buy him a drink tho'. Jeff Berlin still makes me smile with some of his soloing. I'd love to argue with him 1:1 (I like a lot if what he says but not all of it, not by a long way). Despite having moved on, an occasional dose of Jaco is a delight (recently saw some of that footage from Montreux - his grooves were unassailable!!) These guys are still great. They just got knocked off the top spot.

Steve Swallow - no Victor Wooten but what a musician!

Thanks, Alun. This kind of stuff is ok/interesting but it still feels a little stilted to me. Moments are ok, but the ERB bits seem superfluous or superficial. Carbonne sounds like a very creative musician but I would like to hear him in another 15 years or so! I followed a link of his page to Manring's MySpace page and listened to 'Selene' - its not perfect but it is music that transcends the instrument and has the capacity to move me. And all on a 4-string!! Thanks for the link.

queenofthedepths - I recall saying I love Antony Jackson so I would guess that would mean I have heard (and seen in his case) ERB players and (in his case) enjoyed them. My opinions on ERB players is based on what I have heard - how can it be otherwise? What is your based on? What you have seen? As for valuing the opinions of others - I asked for them. Why would I not ask for them if they held no valule for me? My point is not objective (it can't be) - I simply have not heard any of the VERB (very extended range bass) bassists doing anything beautiful, emotionally satisfying, nice, groovy, profound or generally yummy. If I hear any, I will jump up and down, go all gooey and probably comission a 9 string. Michael Manring made me realise that, whilst I in no way like everything he does, you CAN make good music using tapping techniques. Same for Michael Hedges and a few other guys on Youtube. I just want to hear something moving on a VERB. If you hear anything you think will fit the bill, [i]please[/i] let me know. PS - if you look REALLY closely at my picture, you will see a Status 6-string hanging up behind me. ooooooh!! Just don't tell anyone.

Welcome to the world of IT - 40% inspired technical expertise and 60% magic, gremlins and bogeymen!! Learn to love that egg-timer!!

'bassplayer magazine apaprently didn't believe jaco's portrait of tracy was a bass guitar when they first heard it' I thought bass player magazine didn't exist when Jaco released Portrait of Tracy? Anyway - I am now able to report the conclusions I have drawn from this debate. These monstors are called Extended Range Basses or ERBs for short (that's a new one to me). Personally, I thought they called them pianos but there you are. I have looked at the Youtube clips and see a lot of tractor noises and guitar like noodling but nothing that is even close to emotionally satisfying (extended range noodling!). I have learned that most people on this fourm assume that, if you question the value of a concept, it is because you have a closed mind and it couldn't be because the idea in question may be a bit iffy. The problem I have with these instruments is that the practical physiological problems created by these wide necks reduces the flexibility with which the player can phrase. Because of this, the music that is played ends up sounding more than a little stilted (to me). I have a nagging doubt that this 'movement' is about the instruments and the players (as people) and not about the music (like the double basses they used to make that were 11 feet tall and needed two people to play them - they are museum curiosities now). I guess I will have to sit back and watch and listen until some little genius is able to find a way to rise above these technical problems and come up with some beautiful music that doesn't sound like tractor noises and bad guitarists. I am sure it will happen one day.

No it didn't

Turn your amp up and play less hard. I had a great gig with a funk band is Suffolk called Swagger. The material was a kind of funk-rock hybrid with lots of 16th note lines at ridiculous tempos (think Francis Prestia with attitude). And what was worse I had Suffolk legend George Fothergill on drums (loud, confident and loud). Every time I did the gig, I would get the same problem. Ouch! Then, one evening, I thought 'f**k this' and turned the amp up a lot (Eden Metro combo) - I relaxed, the grooves were stronger and funkier and I didn't bleed. Sorted. As long as the sound is good (not just loud), its cool.

Not 100% on this kind of thing but I had major latency problems as a result of an inadequate ASIO driver. The driver in many soundcards is not good enough for music technology as the time it takes to convert audio to digitial is enough to put thing s out. On the advice of a friend who knows about this stuf, I upgraded to an external audio interface (Edirol) and got rid of the problem. Hope it works out.

You know what I am saying? Who are the people you used to think were the dbs but you have now got bored of? The people you bought everything they recorded but now avoid like the plague. Mine? Jaco Pastorius - was he the greatest? Not sure but definately the most influential. I have dozens of his recordings and some of them are superb but some are just not emotionally very satisfying. He could soooo repeat himself! I guess he could have been so much more if he hadn't been ill. Jeff Berlin - set phasers to stun. Early Bruford stuff, Allan Holdsworth's 'Road Games' was a real head turner for me but I don't like his solo bass stuff after 'Dixie'. His sound is too 'clean', not enough depth, enough 'bass' ness! I know he really wants to be a commercial success (or why would he arrange Norah Jones tunes) but, until he understands that the music is not about the instruments or the bass playing but about the emotions, the sounds and the arrangements, he will remain in iconic obscurity. And he'll never be taken seriously by the music business until he shaves off that moustache. Percy Jones - liked him when he was current (early Brand X) but he still sounds the same 25 years later and it doesn't work so well for me anymore. Shame - he really did break new ground. Steve Harris - he got me into bass playing when I was 16/17 and I remember being astonished at the fact that he played with his fingers. Now I am only astonished that Iron Maiden are still going and his fingers still have skin on them. Geddy Lee - Used to love Rush but now, when I go back to listen for old times sake, I wince at the pseudo-technicality of it all. It's all so transparent! And the lyrics? I thought Peart was such a deep man! So who have you left behind as your ears have moved on???

My! Haven't you got a big one?

OK - I get the five string thing. I can even see the point in the six (Anthony Jackson is soooooo musical). But what music are you people playing on 7, 8, 9 or 11 string basses? All I ever hear is sub-bass tractor noises and pseudo guitar noodling, all circus tricks and never anything I would call enjoyable music (and, trust me, I am not narrow minded about it) . I have been out playing and watching live music for three decades now and rarely even see anyone playing a 5-string, never mind a 6. But what and where are you guys with the 9 string basses playing? Or do they never get out of the bedrooms?

Nice to see that Wal's still feature. Mine is an '86 Custom Fretless (4-string). I own a Status six-string as well but it has frets and I don't like frets!! Don't know what model it is, tho' - doesn't seem to matter that much to me.

I think you are right about the volume thing, Wulf. The electric bass doesn't need to sound like an upright but it does need to find the same place in the overall sound; underpinning everything, providiing body and support but not taking over and overpowering everything. Jaco did jazz (not fusion) bass a little disservice when he came front and centre. (I love jaco, by the way). He could be sooo musical but also, when there was no-one around to temper his ego, he could be very tasteless (did you hear the trio cd he did with Brian Melvin and Jon Davis? The bass was, well, in the wrong place in the mix. Now listen to Anthony Jackson on the Michel Camilo CD 'Sundance' -WOW!! Or Steve Swallow with John Scofiled 'En Route'? Brilliant.... beautifully integrated, musical. The bass has to make the music better - you have to get off on making other people sound good! Be cool, people.

Hey Mikey D - you an' me both. I started playing jazz on electric (fretless) in 1986 and am still a great believer in its potential in the jazz genre. Whilst you can't beat a double bass for sounding like a double bass, a properly placed electric bass sound can easily make something swing. I guess the question is what kind of swing is it. Paul Chambers and Charles Mingus 'swing' differently so why can't Steve Swallow (who is THE swingingest bass player ever to plug in) and Anthony Jackson? I think its all about where your bass sound sits in in the sonic spectrum and how it interacts with other instruments (primarily the drummers ride cymbal). I think it is important to work with your instrument AND your amp to make the sound work (I use a Wal Custom Fretless and an Eden Metro combo - I know the Gallien Kruger combo is popular for jazz but, for me, it doesn't fill the right sonic space to make the music swing. Most people use it because it doesn't weigh much not because it sounds right). The truth is if a musician wants to book a double bass player to fulfil his musical vision, s/he should do so. If, however, s/he prefers a double bass player who can't swing to an electric bass player who can, then it is for appearances only, s/he is an idiot and I don't really want to play with him anyway.

Used to play in a band with Grant Nicholas from Feeder and New York based producer Brian Sperber (at the same time). Used to sleep over at Grant's parents mansion cos I couldn't get a bus home after rehearsals. Have supported 'Kool & The Gang' at the Hammersmith Odeon and Dr. Feelgood at a festival in Suffolk, Have played jazz with Stan Sultzman, Jim Mullen, Iain Ballamy, Roy Williams, Janusz Carmello, Hank Shaw, Osian Roberts, Dylan Fowler, Nick Page, Stuart Curtis and a load more. Am now in Bridget Metcalfe's band (Half Moon in Putney - Friday 19th October - be there or don't, see if I care) Also played in a jazz Quintet with Osian and and a trumpeter called Ceiri Torjussen who is now working as orchestrator for major Hollywood blockbusters like Blade 2, Day After Tomorrow, Die Hard 4, Terminator 3, Hellboy etc. Jammed with Richie Haywood (Little Feat) and Gary Moore's drummer (can't remember his name), recorded with NWOBHM band No Quarter and blues man Andy Fernbach (Blues In a Hotel Room). Shared a stage with Ronald Lacey (the Gestapo nazi in Raiders of the Lost Ark). Once saw Dr. Legg from Eastenders on a tube station. Saw Eddie Yates in Cardiff once. Erm. Can I go now?

I think its a little more complicated than one or the other. When you are playing lines that cross strings, you will sometimes need to play with alternate fingers on you right (playing) hand and sometimes rake. I like to compare it to a drummer: sometimes you just need a paradiddle to change priorities on your alternating hand. The issue is that you need to be ready to play the next note wherever you are. Sometimes this is easier than others. My suggested exercise is to take some short sixteenth note passages, two bars or so, and play them starting on different fingers. Then you will develop insight into which fingering patterns need work. A great line for practising this is Darryl Jones main riff on John Scofield's 'Techno' (off the CD 'Still Warm').

Hey, Dickens, why is your sound SOOOOO bad?

Geddy Lee refers briefly to Ipanema on 'Rush In Rio' - to be fair, his quote is ironic so perfect execution was never the priority but the point is made. I knwo what is being said about Jaco's stuff - obviously the tunes are composed but the lines are improvised on the basis of familiarity with the groove, teh form, the intentions etc. My point is simply that constructing your own lines is very different to learning someone elses and that learning the lines played by others can take a lot longer because you are simultaneously learning to absorb a range of new techniques, scales, fingering patterns etc whilst also learning the piece. I caution against learning stuff by people like Wooten. He is a supreme athelete and can groove like a Mother but the juggling and acrobatics he achieves on his bass are not that significant when you look at the music being played. It is entertainment not music (and, yes, there is a difference). A technically wizzy rendering of Amazing Grace is still only Amazing Grace, a cheesy hymn written by Englishman John Newton in 1772. I'd rather listen to it played a 1,000 other ways.

But seriously, learning to read takes you to places you would otherwise not go and it is by far the most marketable skill you can have as a player - read and you will work. Start with walking bass lines and, over the next decade expand into more sophisticated stuff like saxophone solos etc. If you can read, you can work almost anywhere and do it quickly. Best thing you could ever work on and progress, whilst slow, is its own inspiration.

Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read, Learn to read,

'A Remark You Made' by Weather Report and the rest of the 1976 WR CD 'Heavy Weather'. Jaco's definitive moment with that band and an LP that changed the way we heard the bass forever. 'A Remark You Made' is actually quite easy to play and should sound convincing quite quickly so its a good place to start. Percy Jones plays great fretless but his style is so personal it is very hard to relate it to things outside of Brand X. Very creative, tho'. There are a few great Joni Mitchell CDs with Jaco on called 'Shadows & Light', 'Hejira' and 'Mingus'; fantastic use of space and text book melodic fretless bass playing. The fretless bass is an infintely more expressive instrument than a fretted one. I rarely play fretted since I got a Wal Custom in 1986. Can't get past the clanky sound of metal on metal instead of metal on wood. I hope you learn to love it as much as I have.

I think there is a point to be made here. Many of these monster bass lines/solos are played by people in an improvised setting. Take Jaco's 'Havona'. He didn't have to 'learn' that bass line as he had constructed his lines around the tunes he had written and used a couple of dozen of his own stock licks. Anyone who has spent any length of time listening to Jaco will know that he, like all musicians, repeats himself over and over, using his own signature licks to leave his mark on a piece. But it is important to note that much of what he does is made up on the spot ('Teen Town' being an obvious exception). It is actually a [b]lot[/b] harder to learn a passage that is played like that than it is to burn one of your own. In a more conventional setting, someone like Bruce Foxton would have written a line that felt comfortable under his fingers and that he could play without too much difficulty. Noone in their right mind would compose a complex line for a song that he could pull off only 3/10 times. Someone once said 'amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong'. Geddy Lee plays that solo lick off 'YYZ' perfectly everytime. It can't be hard for him as a, he wrote it and b, he has played it 200 times a year ever since. But have you heard him crucify 'Girl From Ipanema'? Easiest song in the world and he f***s it up! Francis Prestia is known as THE finger style funk player but that's all he does. He can barely put together a jazz bass solo, probably can't play a fretless in tune and definately can't read music. It is more important to play musically and to your strengths than it is to be able to execute every great line you have ever heard. Work on your technique, yes, but learn to play the music not the musicians! And don't get dispondent you can't pull off 'Red Right Returning' by Michael Manring. He probably can't play 'Ace of Spades' like Lemmy either (can you?).