Bilbo

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='221148' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:46 AM']But it is !!![/quote] I agree but it don't make it Michelin Star level.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='220751' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:59 PM']Like many of these threads the question relies on individual definition and being what we are; varied, we will have a similar variety of definitions for this. Here's mine: (and I believe it was my post in another thread in which this point was first raised) Very few if any of us are artists by my definition. I would equate the terminology with excellence moving towards world class or at least unique/highly individual in order to achieve the status.[/quote] I know what you are saying, Jake, but I disagree on one fundamental point. To be a poet, you need to write poetry. To be a bass player, you need to play a bass. To be a composer, you need to compose. To be an artist, you need to 'do' art. You can, however, be a [i]bad[/i] poet, a [i]bad [/i] bass player, a [i]bad[/i] composer or a [i]bad[/i] artist. And this is not vernacular slang; when I say [i]bad[/i] I MEAN [i]bad[/i] . I think it is an aspiration towards excellence that drives me and it is that same aspiration that leaves me frustrated at the lack of opportunities to be genuinely (by my value system) creative. Nevertheless, I reserve the right to continue to sit in front of Sibelius, Cubase 3 or Band In A Box writing crappy little compositions, each of which represents another cobble on the Yellow Brick Road to compositional Xanadu! I AM a pretty capable bass player. I AM a ok jazz musician. I AM a lousy composer. But when I compose, it is because I want nothing more than to create something of lasting value, something that justifies the 1,000s of hours I have spend musiking (a term coined by musicologist Christopher Small). My writing is by far the least productive of my musical activities and yet it is the one I value most. I will keep trying. 'I Feel Love', triplets or not, just doesn't compete.

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='220967' date='Jun 17 2008, 10:01 PM']duplicitous[/quote] Moi?

[quote name='The Funk' date='Jun 18 2008, 03:53 AM' post='221071'] Miroslav Vitous is a great bassist, when he's at home (in the Czech Republic I believe) or anywhere else. Wasn't he in Weather Report before Alphonso Johnson and Jaco? /quote] Vitous was the first bass player in WR - he is known primarily as a double bass player but he did tinker with the electric for a while. And, yes, your role does count.

It doesn't have to be CTS. Could be 100 other things (RSI for one). My CTS resulted in a burning sensation in my forearm near the elbow not a pain in the hand itself. You'll need to manage it to allow the 'injury' to heal. I did this by evaluating my technique and recognisisng whta was sloppy about it. A few adjustments and bingo, reduced discmfort to teh point where I have few problems anymore - too years tho'! One of the things I did that helped a lot was to get an ergonomic keyboard for my work computer, a vertical (?) mouse and a mouse mat with a wrist support. That way my wrists weren't compromised all day at work. In a nutshell, it doesn't mean the end of your playing. It may mean that you can't ever play Country and Western but, hell, that's probably a good thing.

VERSION's BANDS??? What a crock! It might be that a 4-piece band trying to play a James Brown tune that orginally featured a 9-piece may have to rewrite odd sections for obvious reasons but to suggest that this merits a higher level of creativitiy is like saying Burger King is a classier repost than MacDonald's. You are deluding yourself.

Who?

[quote name='jakesbass' post='220708' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:14 PM']...my creative output is quite large in the projects I work in.[/quote] It's an interesting point. I recall someone else here saying that their interests and energies were primarily in the area of composing/arranging/producing etc rather than bass playing. It sounds as if, for some of us, the creative impulse is not satisfied by the bass playing alone but by activities peripheral to that playing. I MD a small group as well (at the request of the frontman) but, because it is all covers, that doesn't really work for me either I can, however, see the potential of the role in these sense Jake describes it. Still a bit too 'craft' orientated for my aesthetic sensibilities.

Ok - building on the discussions we are having on artist vs craftsmen, I thought I would start thinking about bass players who are composers, not just of bass lines or solo bass features (narcissism ) but of music to be played by larger ensembles - co-writers not allowed. The bass player must do the whole thing like QueenoftheDepths and write out the parts/teach the parts to the band/ensemble. As a jazzer, my thoughts turn to: Charles Mingus and his small and large groups Dave Holland's trio, quartet, quintet and big band Marc Johnson and his Bass Desires Miroslav Vitous Charlie Haden any more?

I am both but the industry I operate in seems to require a considerably higher number of craftsmen than artists (like most industries, I guess). My aspirations towards being an artist are, therefore, frustrated. I have to, therefore, resign myself to being a craftsman who not only can't create in the proper sense of the word but has to accept that, to use a culinary metaphor, the music business is based around a chain of fast food restaraunts and not delicatessans. I thus have to not only operate as a craftsman rather than as an artist but I as a burger flipper instead of a chef. Pisser, eh?

Different argument, Chris. This one is about losing it!!!

[quote name='WalMan' post='220579' date='Jun 17 2008, 01:52 PM'][*]Nik Kershaw - You've got to laugh[/quote] My mate Julian Bown plays drums on that.... great jazzer. We used to do a residency nr. Bracknell and he played his t*** off. We swang like a swingy thing from swingtown!

Motor skills and muscle memory are one thing but I think what dabootsy is talking about is a right/left brain thing. If you deny your creative impulse, you are eventually left with highly developed motor skills but nothing to do with them but repeat and repeat and repeat.

There is another post called 'Function Band vs Integrity Ramblings' that covers much of this but I agree with you. I justr read this in a book called 'Consdiering Genius' by Stanley Crouch, a leading Black American writer on aesthetics. [i]'Only the catatonic are incapable of feeling, but what separates the artist from others is more than the nature of his or her passion; it is the skill that allows an interior human feeling to move all the way out into the world as an objective artifact, replete with the synthesis of technical mastery and expression that makes for all living, as opposed to academic, art. Taste and opinion are always individual – or should be – and every writer will prefer certain styles, instrumentalists, singers and composers over others. What is essential, however, is integrity, an integrity based upon as clear a perception of the identity of the art as possible'[/i]. I think what you are describing is a very real risk in approaching the art form as a craft rather than as an art. There is, in my mind, an inherent risk in simply [i]rendering[/i] music instead of [i]making[/i] it. The mental process required to [i]create[/i] ideas as opposed to [i]mimic [/i] them is like a muscle you need to exercise. The skill Crouch speaks of is the muscle I am referring to. If you don't exercise it, it weakens. You gradually start to function more as an automaton and gradually lose the capacity to create in real time. Your choice to enter a covers band is entirely defensible but it carries a health warning. Keep your eyes on the prize. To paraphrase Ellis Marsalis, if you play for money or applause, that's all you will ever get. You are perfectly entitled to play in a covers bnad but I believe that you need to make sure you concurrently maintain a creative outlet that allows you to keep your ears and your [i]mind[/i] sharp.

Looks great. Don't you wish there was one place where you could go and try out all these beautiful instruments. I have only ever SEEN one Alembic never mind played one. Same with Fodera.

Me too. Never done it any differently. The Gary Willis technique OTPJ mentions is astonishing and it is hard to argue with its efficacy (his improvised lines are profoundly sophisticated and his technique impeccable) but I have to say that, despite loving some of the early Tribal Tech stuff (Spears particularly), I have grown to loath his fundamental [i]sound[/i] (very processed and 'digital' ). What I don't really know is the relationship between his technique (using a soft touch as I recall) and his tone.

Fretless rools, fretted drools. Welcome.....

[quote name='barneyg42' post='220170' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:57 PM']Kim Mitchell[/quote] He rocks. Have you heard 'Itch'? Fantastic!

I change my strings every 6 years or so so I assume I don't sweat at all. I guess my mother never told me I was an android. Thinking about it, tho', I guess that, because I play COOOOOOOOL jazz, I wouldn't sweat, would I? That and the root vegetable therapy

If it sounds like Jimmy Johnson's, it's fine with me!

[quote name='Huggy and the Bears' post='219824' date='Jun 16 2008, 01:31 PM']Doing covers makes live music more accessible to the public in the same way that the people that can't get to go and see the Mona Lisa, can enjoy a print of it from the local picture shop. You could argue that the print has no integrity along with the people that produce it, however, the shop keeper (whilst not an original artist) does his job in the process well along with probably the factory workers who printed the picture. They may be budding artists at some stage of the evolutionary process but don't have the skills to paint an original picture as grand as the Mona Lisa.[/quote] I was always an admirer of Hieronymous Bosch - had seen his prints and posters in all sorts of places. I thought his work was great. Then, one day, I visited Petersfield and got to see a genuine Bosch triptych. It was stunning. More to the point, however, I became aware of how inadequate much of the literature is at presenting images of paintings i.e. the plates showing pictures in books are literally a pale imitation of the original and seeing any picture in books has since come a poor second to experiencing the real McCoy in galleries. Once you know that, the books don't work anymore. Now music is completely different. You CAN access the original, as a digital recording (I know we could split hairs about recorded sound vs. acoustic but that's an argument for another day). So why should hearing 'Alright Now' played (especially sung) really badly work for anyone? If they love it that much (and they usually don't), then listen to it at home or go see Bad Company (I auditioned for them once, by the way ). Give the gig to the kids who trying to be the NEXT Bad Company!!! I guess my intimacy with music has created a situation where because I know that there is more out there, it is getting increasingly difficult to share any passion for the forgeries. You know, I would really love to get a knockback from a jazz gig because the venue only booked original bands.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='219643' date='Jun 16 2008, 09:28 AM']Loads of stuff, but really into Rickie Lee Jones 1st album and Kenny Wheeler 'Angel Song' Willie weeks and Dave Holland respectively.[/quote] Got Wheeler's 'A Long TIme Ago' on my player in work - learning to love it (Wheeler, John Taylor, John Parricelli and 9 brass - no drums or bass so very 'brassy'). Also, I just got hold of that James Taylor dvd 'Live at the Beacon Theatre' - after your recommendation in an earlier post of this kind, Jake. Really great. Just got Dave Holland's 'Critical Mass', Andrew Hill's 'Black Fire' and 'Three For All - We Three' by Dave Liebman, Steve Swallow and Adam Nussbaum. Grrrrrrreat! Nussbaum is underated

[quote name='kennyrodg' post='219601' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:55 AM']Love Ballad by George Benson [/quote] There is a great live video of this on YouTube - can't do a link from work so you'll have to find it yourself!

Its the only bass I have practised on for 22 years. :wub: