Bilbo

It so doesn't and everyone knows it....but, being 'English' we are too polite to say so. :snob: Its ultimately destructive to allow people to proceed without guidance. I think there is a compelling argument to say we should be supportive and encouraging without being collusive. There is a scene in Wynton Marsalis' book 'Sweet Swing Blues on the Road: A Year with Wynton Marsalis and His Septet' where they have to send a young Eric Reed back to the woodshed for not quite cutting it. It is a particularly moving part of the story and there is a photo of Marsalis hugging the pianist after giving him the news. Now Eric was a good player then and is a GREAT player now but Marsalis needed to make the music the best it could be and needed a better player. By doing it in a respectful way, Reed maintains his dignity, goes away and gets the skills he needs to make himself a better player and Marsalis addresses the weakness. In the UK, we just 'don't call him' and never say why or jsut tolerate it because the money's good. Its a bit gutless, isn't it?. Or we slag him off behind his back? That's two faced? So why is it a crime to say, quietly and away from the public's gaze, 'John. We love you but you're not cutting it, mate. Go see this teacher. Go improve your time. Go work on your chops. Come back when you are ready'. I should note that I can take it as well as give it out and on the occasions when beter players have told me to work on something, I have taken it on the chin and done so (Iain Ballamy told me to work on my reading, Paul Tungay (60s London session ace and Tom Jones lead trumpeter for years) told me where my phrasing was slipping (helped me nail it) and Lee Goodall (Cardiff based multi instrumentalist who played baritone with Van Morrison and other horns with John Taylor, Paula Gardiner, Dylan Fowler and a host of others) who helped me deal with the concept of playing ahead of or behind the beat. If anyone else has anything to say about my playing, I would rather hear it than not as I can't rely entirely on my own critical sense to see the shortcomings.

I can't play files in work so can't comment yet but am I eager to hear this?!!! (I also quite like what SoaD I have heard so that's a good start)

No expert but I can see that trying to use four fingers in half position would leave you vulnerable to intonation problems over an evening due to fatigue - as your hand tired, over the evening or through a particularly long or fast tune, you would inevitably find the additional stretch that little bit harder to maintain and the notes would consequently slip out of tune. I find the Simandl easier on the hands (maybe if I had started this when my hands were still growing, I may have stood a chance - as it is they are grateful for the more natural stretch of the three notes)

[quote name='fatback' post='921808' date='Aug 11 2010, 05:33 PM']I imagine this thread all by itself has cleared a fair bit of undergrowth. I sure won't be risking jazz any time soon [/quote] By all means play it, study it, learn some tunes, practice them, get some lessons and then, when you have got some of the basics under your fingers, find a jazz jam session and go and play one of those tunes you have worked on with some other people. Then go home and practice some more and, next time, play two. What I am saying is, don't expect to say 'I think I'll have a go at jazz' on Monday and to book a gig for your new jazz quartet on Friday. I'm going to get some t-shirts printed: Jazz: don't cr*p on the music...

Dropping the odd note, losing your place in So What, speeding up or slowing down - all grist to the mill. All of those, all night, is less indefensible.

[quote name='fatback' post='921640' date='Aug 11 2010, 02:25 PM']Are you sure your bandmates aren't messing up because the prospect of breaching their parole conditions and being sent back down makes them so nervous they can't play?[/quote] If that were possible, the prisons would be in even deeper trouble than they already are

[quote name='witterth' post='921565' date='Aug 11 2010, 01:20 PM']OOOh god, I've made you really cross haven't I? [size=1]sorry[/size] ([/quote] Don't give it a second thought, w !! I am a Probation Officer! If I haven't been called a W***er at least once a day, I probably haven't done my job properly !!

I also like that 'its not nice to be mean to people' thing.... Its also not nice to let your friends make fools of themselves in public oblivious to the fact that they are doing so. Would you let your closest friend go onto Britains Got Talent if you KNEW they were going to bomb? Some would. I wouldn't.

[quote name='witterth' post='921172' date='Aug 11 2010, 12:41 AM']You know, trawling through this makes me realise what a bunch of anally obsessed "self interested" bunch of door handlers we can be at times. so, somebody gets it wrong, a "bit", at times,isn't that good, or, any good at all,useless totally totally rubbish, well. good.....nobody DIED!! its music!! and if its not the best so what?? don't compare it to medicine/ surgery its not the same.....its not.....NEVER will be, if a doctor played a Bflat when it should have been a natural, who'd ever care? if he/she put the wrong tie in the wrong vien during surgery, it not just "oops" is it? again, Sssheeh I love this stuff, I suppose the fact I'm not that good makes me so defensive!! Ahh Well...Ha ha...[/quote] So caring about the quality of what we do is being anally obsessive. Not caring is amatuerish and potentailly destructive. Of course, you can care and still be crap but then, if you had any level of integrity, you woudl remain in the rehearsal room until you got better. But the lure of the bright lights and the reflected glory of being in a band is too much to manage for people. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the people who were laughing at the previously mentioned gig (a village hall in Suffolk) had be throwing things (Tonypandy Royal Naval Club). The public (and often the landlords/commitees/customers) are too polite to complain but they certainly don't come back. I am not talking about people getting it wrong a bit. I am talking about people getting it wrong a LOT. All night, from the first beat of the first bar till the last chord fades out. We need some quality control, people, or the whole thing dies. Nobody died? No, but some people were psychologically harmed in the making of those videos. My point is, how many times would you put up with poor workmanship in your colleagues (ina nay field) before you said 'no'. I have reached that point. Why should I respect them (as musicians) when they don't respect me or the music by learning to do it properly? I am talking core skills here, not virtuosity. Doddy paid his dues the way real musician do. His story is similar to mine and most musicians who are cutting it. Earn your wings before you fly in public. Amateurs belong in jam sessions and workshop bands not on proper gigs. If you are any good, the tutors spot you, word gets out and the phone starts to ring but you need to be ready to deliver at least at a competent level. Screwing up in public is not good for anyone, least of all those who are screwing up. YOU ARE BEING LAUGHED AT. The delusional think they are 'living the dream' whilst the people around them are thinking 'kn*b' . What is interesting here, sociologically and psychologically, is the number of people who have pm'd me to say they agree but won't say so in public because they don't want to look bad. I respect their privacy but its symptomatic of the issue. They watch, they listen, they wince, then smile and go home and the 'offenders' are allowed to reoffend repeatedly.

I do my return on-line now and its really easy. Your PAYE stuff is all on your P60 and another document relating to expenses paid (P16 or something like that) and your music income is 4 figures income, expenses capital expsnditure profit/loss. Takes no time at all if you have the figures to hand. I earned around £6k 3 years ago, £4K 2 years ago and £3.3K last year. It was just as easy each time. I work on 40p per miles for travel and the rest is just figures you have spent on gear/accessories.

No - the worst player is the bandleader. I play with great people all of the time and I have gigs that are pretty cool (not on video, alas) and a real buzz so I have chosen to focus my energies there and not on maintaining someone's delusion. I have a close drummer friend who recently depped for them (without me) and he has said he will never do it again. Its the psychology of bad gigs - I find them harmful if they come too often.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='920167' date='Aug 9 2010, 10:48 PM']I'm hinting towards what it is that drives you to satisfaction in music.[/quote] All I want is to see a job well done, Jake. We all have bad nights and learn to bounce back but when the musicians you are going to play with are so bad that the gig will inevitably be crap, it is a different matter. To be blunt, I even began to think that the gig was doing me harm: 'that's the bass player with that crap band' kind of thing. It was certainly undermining my self confidence - intellectually, I knew it wasn't my fault but, emotionally, over time, it eats away at your self esteem. I could play anything if it was decent. I could even play crap stuff for one or two gigs or a week long show, its when your diary is full of gigs that you KNOW are going to be crap, you've got to ask yourself is it worth it?

As I keep saying, this is not elitism. I will play with people who are developing but I think there should be a bottom line before which you shouldn't be allowed out. And some of these guys had not reached it. If you went into surgery and the Doc was sat there with a 'heart ops for beginners' manual, you'd run a mile. If your solicitor in Court told you he wasn't experienced and was just 'having a go', you'd freak. But, where music is concerned, people seem to think anyone should be able to have go. I have no problem with them trying it on, doing gigs at family parties or whatever but, for me, it reflects badly on the participants, however good they may be as individuals. I walked away because it was hurting my soul; making me sad. I am not arrogant enough to think I am the dogs b's, but I know I can do better and shouldn't collude with this charade. For the record, do you want to know who took the gig over after me? Mick Hutton.

That video you posted was fine, Jake. Not my favourite sub genre but it sounded like it was supposed to; it swings, people's phrasing is ok etc. My videos are just off the scale for plain wrong. That band got paid £600 for that gig. I have seen people sentenced to prison for less.....

Told you. Now THAT skeleton is out of the closet, my reputation is in tatters.....

[quote name='witterth' post='919869' date='Aug 9 2010, 05:53 PM']I'd have loved to have seen His first gig (that he worked so hard towards in 1980"ish") he must have been brilliant.[/quote] It was a rock band that had its faults but it was ok and sounded like a rock band. It was rehearsed and it was tight (I was 17, the rest of the band were 30+). We did a Radio One session three months later so it couldn't have been that bad. Seriously, though. Check this out and tell me I am wrong. The piano solo at 1.00 is a doozy. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrhE5ARc_w&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrhE5ARc_w...feature=related[/url] This is even better... [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2fl1_kqsas&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2fl1_kqsas&NR=1[/url]

I don't want anyone to get the idea that this is about elitism and snobbery. This is about crap music being played crap. Jazz, like all ensemble music, is a collective art. If there are weak links that prevent it being the best it can be, we have a responsibility to do something about it, even if, as in this case, the thing we do is to not play. If there is any integrity at play here it is the honesty of saying 'no, I will not play because, however hard we try, because of your lack of preparation and practice, it will not be good music and does not deserve to be played'. This isn't about 'that trombone player is a little too old fashioned for my tastes', 'the saxophonist needs to work on his ideas' or 'the piano player plays too many Bud Powell licks' etc. This about every note from bar one of the first tune being dead, souless, unimaginative and excruciatingly pointless. It is about giving Jazz a bad name in front of the viewing public and, just as importantly, it is about me feeling that, however hard I concentrate, however hard I work at my contribution, it will suck. And, actually, if one is absolutely honest about it, it is actually quite unprofessional.

Don't know any of them so will have a look around (love Mike Walker though not so sure about Zorn)

I am a jazz musician. What are people?

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='919682' date='Aug 9 2010, 02:50 PM']Just out of interest Bilbo, what jazz are you currently spinning?[/quote] This month's downloads: Enrico Pieranunzzi/Marc Johnson/Joey Baron Trio, Robert Hurst's Unrehurst, Dave Holland's new album w. Pepe Habichuela and John Patitucci's Rememberance. I know what you are getting at but I am trying to avoid 50s and 60s jazz at moment for the same reasons; I want to know what is happening now not historically. Still get the old stuff out periodically but only really listen to music on my ipod so its new stuff mainly.

I am just reading Tim Blanning's 'The Triumph of Music' and what we are experiencing in the modern music industry is just history repeating itself. There were several mediocre performers who were fairly entreprenuerial in previous centuries and made considerable fortunes giving the uninformed 'what they want' at the expense of the artists who, hindsight has taught us, had something to say (the Cowell's of their day). The mediocre is, and always has been, throughout the history of music, where the money is. 'A tune you can hum after hearing it once' would seem to be the order of the day. The familiar. The tragedy is, for me, that rock and jazz are doing what classical music has done; turning into a repertory art form based on a very narrow catalogue of music. Tribute and covers bands are the 21st Century equivalent of the London Mozart Players, just regurgitating the tried and tested. Some people make their money like that. Good luck to them. I still thnk its a shame....

I loved the early Tribal Tech stuff when he was fresh out of MIT but they lost me after Nomads. Some of th e later jam band stuff just didn't do anything for me at all. 'Bent' has a nice track on it.... 'Its Only Music'? I think (bass takes melody) - its in 3 I think?

I have an old copy of Double Bassist magazine that has an article on preparing for auditions. I will look it up and, if I can find it, will scan a copy and email it to you (or photocopy and post).

[quote name='Marvin' post='919540' date='Aug 9 2010, 12:57 PM']Are you learning a new foreign language?[/quote] No. Biting my tongue.

[quote name='oldslapper' post='919530' date='Aug 9 2010, 12:53 PM']I think it's a shame Bilbo. Bad musicians only improve by playing with better musicians.....(it's only an opinion folks so no shouting please)....so you may be denying someone the opportunity to improve by playing alongside someone as good as you.[/quote] Not adverse to that, o/s, but the $64,000 question is, when is someone just not good enough to be learning in public? Personally, I think the answer is sometimes as plain as the nose on your face. I have contact with a lot of US Jazz journalists and one of the big issues for players in the major US cities is that students at the local music colleges (inc Berklee and BIT) are taking all of the gigs from the pros by agreeing to being paid a pittance and bringing along a string of other students to watch (and spend money). So, the irony is, the developing players take the gigs that, when they graduate, will be unavailable to them. I think there is a difference between taking a developing player (I would consider myself to be little more than that) and giving them air time and taking a beginner and letting them 'have a go'. Traditionally, that was what jam sessions and sitting in was for. THere are some people turning up a jam sessions that are nowhere near ready to play in public. Now these guys are getting gigs because they can fool some of the people all of the time. I was talking to a (very competent) sax player who did a recent gig with the band I left last year and he told me that, on the last occasion, he saw members of the audience actually [i]laughing[/i] at the band. At the end, the bandleader said 'that went well'. Delusional. These people get gigs because they have the gift of the gab, can set up a website and can fool some people. They are a disgrace and should be exposed as charlatans. There I said it! The cognoscenti in the audience know and the rest aren't listening. The better musicians deserve better and so do the audiences. My point is simply this: if they can get away with it, then who am I to criticise? Its just that I won't be party to it any more.