redstriper Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I feel a bit daft posting this but.............. If you have a bass with a jazz pup near the neck, try this and report back - Solo the pick up on full volume with the tone rolled right off. Cut all top and middle eq on your amp. Set amp gain well below clipping and moderate output volume. Play something simple, finger style. Now do the same thing with the pup volume reduced to about half or 3/4. Increase amp gain to match the previous output volume. Leave all other settings the same. Play the same thing. Well ? Does it sound the same, or do you notice a difference in the tone? I have found a big difference and I've done it with different basses and different amps, there is a lot more deep fundamental and less harmonic overtone with the pup volume turned down. Is this normal and if so why have I only just found out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanP2008 Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 [quote name='redstriper' post='734685' date='Feb 4 2010, 02:13 AM']I feel a bit daft posting this but.............. <snip> I have found a big difference and I've done it with different basses and different amps, there is a lot more deep fundamental and less harmonic overtone with the pup volume turned down. Is this normal and if so why have I only just found out? [/quote] I think you've discovered that as the source impedance of your bass increases (via the volume pot), the turnover frequency of the low-pass filter formed by the (increasing) source impedance and the capacitance of the guitar cable reduces, reducing top-end... A lot of guitars suffer from this too, and some guitars have a "bleed" capacitor fitted across the volume pot to prevent it from occurring.... In fact, it can be quite useful on a guitar - playing your chord stuff with the vol rolled off a bit for a softer sound - whack it up for lead parts, with a more agressive tone... ... I'm a bit surprised it is so noticable on a bass though - I have a Jazz, but it's an active, and I haven't tried it yet... I mostly use it with the vol pot right up (or knocked back only just a little) for this very reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Yup, the old issue of rolling the volume off darkens the tone thang. Oddly though, I've only ever found 1 guitar (Godin SD) that did it noticeably: all the rest of mine (strats, les pauls, washburn, Godin xtSA) don't do this to an obvious degree. I suspect it's to do with how the tone controls are wired up, and which side of the tone pot relative to the volume control the tone cap sits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanP2008 Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 [quote name='Ancient Mariner' post='734847' date='Feb 4 2010, 10:42 AM']<snip> which side of the tone pot relative to the volume control the tone cap sits.[/quote] That in itself cannot make any difference. If a pot and a cap were in series, and mounted in a "black box", there would be no way (by measuring electical characteristics from outside the box) to determine which one was first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 4, 2010 Author Share Posted February 4, 2010 [quote name='AlanP2008' post='734748' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:52 AM']I think you've discovered that as the source impedance of your bass increases (via the volume pot), the turnover frequency of the low-pass filter formed by the (increasing) source impedance and the capacitance of the guitar cable reduces, reducing top-end... [color="#FF0000"][u]Please translate in layman's terms (science is not my strong point).[/u][/color] A lot of guitars suffer from this too, and some guitars have a "bleed" capacitor fitted across the volume pot to prevent it from occurring.... In fact, it can be quite useful on a guitar - playing your chord stuff with the vol rolled off a bit for a softer sound - whack it up for lead parts, with a more agressive tone... ... I'm a bit surprised it is so noticable on a bass though - I have a Jazz, but it's an active, and I haven't tried it yet... I mostly use it with the vol pot right up (or knocked back only just a little) for this very reason...[/quote] Thanks for the explanation - I don't quite understand the science, but I'm glad to know I'm not imagining things! I have noticed that there is no such effect with the active piezo pup on my Ashbory and I wonder whether it will still be there with humbucking pups? It's a very noticeable phenomenon with the single coil jazz pups and I'm amazed I've only just discovered it after 30 years of always having the pup on full volume. It's especially useful in my style of music where deep fundamental bass is everything. I will always keep the volume low now and I recommend all reggae bassists give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 [quote name='AlanP2008' post='735015' date='Feb 4 2010, 01:33 PM']That in itself cannot make any difference. If a pot and a cap were in series, and mounted in a "black box", there would be no way (by measuring electical characteristics from outside the box) to determine which one was first...[/quote] I'll believe you, but I also can't explain why some guitars & basses have this flaw and some do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanP2008 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Ancient Mariner' post='735636' date='Feb 4 2010, 11:15 PM']I'll believe you, but I also can't explain why some guitars & basses have this flaw and some do not.[/quote] Factors: Pickup type (s/c h/, impedance and inductance Pot value Pot wiring configuration (usually wired differently when there are two vol controls) Presence or absence of a "treble bleed capacitor" Tone pot and cap values (usually always in circuit unless "no load" pot used) Any other unusual factors in the guitar or bass (clever switching, coil splits etc.) Length and capacitance/metre of the guitar cable. Characteristics of the amp input. Stuff I've probably forgotten... Alan Edited February 5, 2010 by AlanP2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 So is this a flaw with my basses, which could be fixed with some electrical tinkering? Or is it a feature of all jazz bass pups ? My basses are a 1963 Fender jazz and a modern Tanglewood Corvette copy, both with original wiring . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Could this be the answer perhaps [url="http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer"]http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanP2008 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) [quote name='redstriper' post='736352' date='Feb 5 2010, 04:05 PM']So is this a flaw with my basses, which could be fixed with some electrical tinkering? Or is it a feature of all jazz bass pups ? My basses are a 1963 Fender jazz and a modern Tanglewood Corvette copy, both with original wiring .[/quote] It is not necessarily a flaw - it is certainly a "characteristic", you could even call it a "feature"... It can be changed somewhat by putting a cap across from the "hot" terminal of the volume pot to the wiper, but the value wold be a matter of experiment, and you might well find that as you rolled the volume down past a certain point it actually ended up with all toppiness and no bass... .... you might try to live with it? Edited February 5, 2010 by AlanP2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='AlanP2008' post='736471' date='Feb 5 2010, 05:46 PM']It is not necessarily a flaw - it is certainly a "characteristic"[/quote] Exactly, good reply Alan. There are all sorts of such characteristics with amps and guitars, and the trick is to get to know then and use them. I've always used the volume pot on my Precisions as a form of tone pot, and have always used the interaction of the two pots and a further option. Irrespective of amp gain, I've always felt a Precision sounds sweeter with the vol and tone rolled off a bit. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='kennyrodg' post='736467' date='Feb 5 2010, 05:44 PM']Could this be the answer perhaps [url="http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer"]http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer[/url][/quote] Thanks - that really looks like what I need, has anyone on here tried one of these ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='AlanP2008' post='736471' date='Feb 5 2010, 05:46 PM']It is not necessarily a flaw - it is certainly a "characteristic", you could even call it a "feature"... It can be changed somewhat by putting a cap across from the "hot" terminal of the volume pot to the wiper, but the value wold be a matter of experiment, and you might well find that as you rolled the volume down past a certain point it actually ended up with all toppiness and no bass... .... you might try to live with it?[/quote] Thanks but I won't be doing any experimental mods, coz it's just not my scene. I have lived with it for 30 years in blissful ignorance and only just discovered this 'feature'. Now I can't stand the tone with the volume on full - I really should get out more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennysFord Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='redstriper' post='736517' date='Feb 5 2010, 06:29 PM']Thanks - that really looks like what I need, has anyone on here tried one of these ?[/quote] Me, I quite like it too, I fitted one on the Spunky Jazz, easy job to do and I like the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='Beedster' post='736489' date='Feb 5 2010, 06:10 PM']Exactly, good reply Alan. There are all sorts of such characteristics with amps and guitars, and the trick is to get to know then and use them. I've always used the volume pot on my Precisions as a form of tone pot, and have always used the interaction of the two pots and a further option. Irrespective of amp gain, I've always felt a Precision sounds sweeter with the vol and tone rolled off a bit. C[/quote] Nobody has ever mentioned using the volume pot to adjust tone as far as I can remember, but it has almost as big an effect as the tone control. The tone just adds top, where the volume increases upper mids and harmonic overtones (as far as I can tell). It's surely not intentional in the production of the instrument - or is it? I've always kept the volume on full, probably as a result of working in studios where it's important to maintain the same volume after session breaks and to get best SNR. I still feel happier with the volume on full and I think I'll try experimenting with amp eq to eliminate the nasty overtones without reducing pup volume. I'm still amazed that I've only just discovered this after all these years - it's like my ears have finally decided to actually listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='kennyrodg' post='736532' date='Feb 5 2010, 06:44 PM']Me, I quite like it too, I fitted one on the Spunky Jazz, easy job to do and I like the results.[/quote] I just watched the youtube demo of the redeemer and it seems to do the opposite of what I want. It retains the tone with the volume on full, when you decrease the volume. I want the muted tone with the volume turned down to be retained with the volume on full. Unless I'm missing something............... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanP2008 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='redstriper' post='736545' date='Feb 5 2010, 07:00 PM']I just watched the youtube demo of the redeemer and it seems to do the opposite of what I want. It retains the tone with the volume on full, when you decrease the volume. I want the muted tone with the volume turned down to be retained with the volume on full. Unless I'm missing something............... ?[/quote] The tone pot rolls away the top as you turn it down. When full up, you (almost) get the full tonal range of the pup... On the face of it, the tone pot is the thing that you would use to get the tone you want, rather than the volume pot. In all probability though, only the highest frequencies are being affected by the tone pot, and those being rolled off quite severely when it is pulled right down. Possibly, the sound you like is with the response rolling off starting off at a lower frequency, but rolling away fairly slowly. If that is the case, it might be that a larger value of tone cap would do it for you - you'd need to find someone who could fiddle with that with you. Some basses have a switch that selects different cap values - I can't remember what the thing is called - I think the old EB3 was like that... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 [quote name='AlanP2008' post='736201' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:13 PM']Factors: Pickup type (s/c h/, impedance and inductance Pot value Pot wiring configuration (usually wired differently when there are two vol controls) Presence or absence of a "treble bleed capacitor" Tone pot and cap values (usually always in circuit unless "no load" pot used) Any other unusual factors in the guitar or bass (clever switching, coil splits etc.) Length and capacitance/metre of the guitar cable. Characteristics of the amp input. Stuff I've probably forgotten... Alan[/quote] With respect, I'm reasonably familiar with the various layouts, pot values etc in my gear, having wired most of my guitars myself, built some of the amps I play them through etc. Input impedance in an amp plays a major role in how well an amp responds to various effects and their buffers (the traditional 68K resistor is NOT a good value -22K to 33K is MUCH better) but not loss of treble when rolling off the volume. That was why I made my initial observation about cap and pot order. You're correct that all the stuff you listed will make a difference, but it's rather smoke screen in the argument when comparing 2 guitars through the same gear. Some instruments seem to have the issue and some don't. My Godin SD did, and there was nothing 'special' about the components or circuit. Flaw or feature? Like so many things, one can learn to work round it, just like bad fretwork or incorrect action. Interactive tone controls are a classic 'feature' of some amps, but they're a damn nuisance if you're trying to dial something in quickly on stage. I like to keep tone and volume controls separate on an instrument, although I can see how they can be made to work together to help, especially if that's what you're used to/like already. Just not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) [quote name='redstriper' post='736545' date='Feb 5 2010, 07:00 PM']I just watched the youtube demo of the redeemer and it seems to do the opposite of what I want. It retains the tone with the volume on full, when you decrease the volume. I want the muted tone with the volume turned down to be retained with the volume on full. Unless I'm missing something............... ?[/quote] Sounds like you just need to roll your tone pot back, or maybe acquire a bass EQ pedal if the tone control doesn't go far enough. You could also solder in a bigger (say 0.1uF) cap tp the tone pot. Edited February 5, 2010 by Ancient Mariner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 Yes that makes sense - thanks Alan. I am interested in deep fundamental bass with no upper mid or treble.. It is achievable with eq and it is only recently that I noticed how much closer to 'my' sound it was with the volume turned down. I like the idea of a wider ranging tone control taking out more mids as well as tops so I could get the tone I like with the volume on full. Unless someone makes a jazz neck pick up that has a restricted tonal range, concentrated in the lowest frequencies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 [quote name='redstriper' post='736817' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:54 PM']Unless someone makes a jazz neck pick up that has a restricted tonal range, concentrated in the lowest frequencies?[/quote] Wizard do varying sounding pickups that may cater for your needs. I bought some for my Squier P5 (it has J pups in it) and to me, I think they sound like what you want. I spoke to Andy at Wizard, and I think we were heading towards the sound of the 84's, but he had to custom make mine for the 5 string. P.S. From bitter experience, if you do go down that road, make sure you give him ALL the measurements! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 I got this simple explanation from Manchester guitar guru Steve Robinson - [i]"When you turn the volume down you are effectively changing the pickup's inductance and therefore its resonant frequency. It's possible to fit a resistor in series with the volume control to mimic turning it down, but you would of course lose volume".[/i] It seems the obvious and easiest solution is to keep the volume turned down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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