Using an EQ pedal...for vocals?

[Baloney Balderdash]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

 

@JoeEvans - nice solution to the very valid point @BigRedX raised about needing a mic level input / XLR format. 

 

I've spotted that several EQ pedals also provide an EQ boost which could be a neat way of getting there with one piece of kit and keeping costs/and the amount of additional gear down?

 

I note that the Source Audio EQ2 has a +12dB volume boost and also provides a combination graphic and parametric equalizer with 10 fully adjustable frequency bands and up to 8 onboard presets (And the ability to simultaneously run two tailored EQ settings which can be independently routed to either stereo output). 

Actually the EQ2 got 2 separate channels of 10 fully adjustable full featured parametric EQ bands each, which can be run either as separate/stereo channels, or parallel to each other or in series, which in the latter case actually would effectively give you a 20 band fully parametric equalizer, plus an additional fully adjustable HPF and LPF, plus the two outer bands can be set to work as shelving EQ filters instead.

 

All in all an amazing EQ pedal, with an astonishing amount of features.

 

No doubt the most advanced pedal form equalizer ever, miles ahead any other pedal from equalizers on the market.

 

Also it is +/- 18dB per frequency band, but then an additional up to +12dB clean boost, that it is capable of.

 

It is in fact also not a combination of graphic and parametric equalizing it is fully, full featured, parametric equalizer, that is full control over both center frequency, Q/bandwidth, and boost/cut, for each single band, it just looks like a standard graphic EQ, and it does require to be connected to a computer to take full advantage of all its features via an app, though it got a presets function that allows you to store and recall different settings.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Al Krow]

20 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Actually the EQ2 got 2 separate channels of 10 fully adjustable full featured parametric EQ bands each, which can be run either as separate/stereo channels, or parallel to each other or in series, which in the latter case actually would effectively give you a 20 band fully parametric equalizer, plus an additional fully adjustable HPF and LPF, plus the two outer bands can be set to work as shelving EQ filters instead.

 

All in all an amazing EQ pedal, with an astonishing amount of features.

 

No doubt the most advanced pedal form equalizer ever, miles ahead any other pedal from equalizers on the market.

 

Also it is +/- 18dB per frequency band, but then an additional up to +12dB clean boost, that it is capable of.

 

It is in fact also no combination of graphic and parametric equalizing it is fully full featured parametric, that is full control over both center frequency, Q/bandwidth and boost/cut, for each single band, it just looks like a standard graphic EQ, and it requires to be connected to a computer to take full advantage of all its features via an app, though it got a presets function.

 

That's really helpful, thank you! Was there a typo in your last sentence when you said: "in fact also no combination of graphic and parametric equalizing" - I couldn't quite follow that bit?

[Baloney Balderdash]

36 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

That's really helpful, thank you! Was there a typo in your last sentence when you said: "in fact also no combination of graphic and parametric equalizing" - I couldn't quite follow that bit?

Yes, should have said:

 

Quote

It is in fact also not a combination of graphic and parametric equalizing it is a fully, full featured, parametric equalizer...

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[TimR]

If you have a low cut button on your PA make sure it is in. Then you can boost using the low frequency EQ without introducing rumble from the bass and drums.

 

Also check whether she is using a cardoid or a hypercardoid microphone as monitor speaker placement will be different. Hypercardoid will pick up feedback directly infront of her so the monitor speaker needs to be to her side. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by TimR

[TimR]

It also depends if this problem is in all venues or just a few or even just in the rehearsal space as either room acoustics or the placement of other instruments can impact. 

 

We had a gig last Sunday where we had a nightmare with feedback. Nothing we did seemed to get around it.

 

I do have a feedback destroyer that I used in a previous band and found it to be quite good, but the manual is a complicated read and can't remember if the 'Auto' selection is just a simple set and forget thing.

Edited July 17, 2023 by TimR

[Al Krow]

@Baloney Balderdash is it the case that the EQ centre points on the SA EQ2 on the face of the pedal display are not fixed if it is fully parametric i.e. you can select whatever EQ centre points you want and not have to stick to the 31Hz, 62Hz, 125Hz etc. centre points?

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

@Baloney Balderdash is it the case that the EQ centre points on the SA EQ2 on the face of the pedal display are not fixed if it is fully parametric i.e. you can select whatever EQ centre points you want and not have to stick to the 31Hz, 62Hz, 125Hz etc. centre points?

 

5 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

...Actually the EQ2 got 2 separate channels of 10 fully adjustable full featured parametric EQ bands each...

 

...It is in fact also not a combination of graphic and parametric equalizing it is fully, full featured, parametric equalizer, that is full control over both center frequency, Q/bandwidth, and boost/cut, for each single band...

Yes....

 

Else there wouldn't be much point in being able to run the 2 X 10 band EQ channels in series or parallel either.

 

You need to hook it up to a computer and adjust via an app though to do so.

 

But as I also wrote you got 4 presets, 8 if you hook up an additional pedal to control them.

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1847200/Source-Audio-Eq2-Programmable-Eq.html

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

Yes....

 

You need to hook it up to a computer and adjust via an app though to do so.

 

But as I also wrote you got 4 presets, 8 if you hook up an additional pedal to control them.

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1847200/Source-Audio-Eq2-Programmable-Eq.html

 

 

Per the manual: "Each of the 10 frequency bands is fully adjustable over the audio spectrum of 20Hz to 20kHz. Additionally, the filter frequencies used on Channel 1 can be completely different than those used on Channel 2. All of these filter adjustments are saved per preset."

 

Very cool!

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, TimR said:

If you have a low cut button on your PA make sure it is in. Then you can boost using the low frequency EQ without introducing rumble from the bass and drums.

Also check whether she is using a cardoid or a hypercardoid microphone as monitor speaker placement will be different. Hypercardoid will pick up feedback directly infront of her so the monitor speaker needs to be to her side. 

 

2 hours ago, TimR said:

It also depends if this problem is in all venues or just a few or even just in the rehearsal space as either room acoustics or the placement of other instruments can impact. 

We had a gig last Sunday where we had a nightmare with feedback. Nothing we did seemed to get around it. I do have a feedback destroyer that I used in a previous band and found it to be quite good, but the manual is a complicated read and can't remember if the 'Auto' selection is just a simple set and forget thing.

 

We do have an hpf / low cut on each channel on the desk. Would you recommend using it for every instrument and mic though? Or would you want to leave the kick drum untrammelled by an hpf (low cut)?

As we use in-ears the issue of monitor placement is fortunately not a concern for us.

The issue I've raised in the OP is not venue specific. We do seem to be getting the hang of avoiding feedback issues, even when our singer is making the most of her (Sennheiser) wireless mic to wander out front and engage with the audience - I guess that's maybe down her excellent mic control and switching off/angling the mic to minimise the potential for feedback.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Al Krow

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 17/07/2023 at 17:32, Al Krow said:

 

Per the manual: "Each of the 10 frequency bands is fully adjustable over the audio spectrum of 20Hz to 20kHz. Additionally, the filter frequencies used on Channel 1 can be completely different than those used on Channel 2. All of these filter adjustments are saved per preset."

 

Very cool!

Yes, and as said, you can run those two channels, either as two independent separate channels, in stereo, in parallel with each other, or in series, the latter effectively giving you a 20 band fully parametric equalizer.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Yes, and as said, you can run those two channels, either seperate/stereo, in parallel with each other, or in series, the latter effectively giving you a 20 band fully parametric equalizer.

 

 

Indeed! Although we will most likely need one at most two parametric EQs for live use. 

[TimR]

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

 

We do have an hpf / low cut on each channel on the desk. Would you recommend using it for every instrument and mic though? Or would you want to leave the kick drum untrammelled by an hpf (low cut)?

As we use in-ears the issue of monitor placement is fortunately not a concern for us.

The issue I've raised in the OP is not venue specific. We do seem to be getting the hang of avoiding feedback issues, even when our singer is making the most of her (Sennheiser) wireless mic to wander out front and engage with the audience - I guess that's maybe down her excellent mic control and switching off/angling the mic to minimise the potential for feedback.

 

 

Senheiser are pretty good directional mics.

 

Usually the hpf is around 80hz, so wouldn't want to cut bass guitar, but the bass drum can benefit from high pass as the thump is around 120hz. 

 

But it's the vocal mic you need to be able to boost and if that's picking up bass from the guitar and drums that won't be helping. The more low you EQ in for her voice, the more of the low bleed you'll get. So the HPF will be below her voice but above the rumble from drums and bass. 

 

I hpf everything apart from bass guitar. 

[Al Krow]

@TimR - thanks. Our desk hpf kicks in at 100Hz and I also do have a Thumpinator available to use which has a steep cut of -24dB/octave from 28Hz to get rid of sub-sonic crud. 

 

Appreciate this maybe a bit of a side-track, but in terms of getting the kick drum & bass guitar to sit together nicely in the mix, I came across this from Sweetwater recently, which I found helpful and we've since been broadly following, to the extent allowed by our relatively unsophisticated desk 3 band EQ which is centred at bass: 60Hz, mids (var) 140Hz to 3 KHz and treble 12 KHz

 

"A common trick to getting a unified sound between kick and bass while retaining clarity is to boost the lows on the kick (60-80Hz) cut the low-mids anywhere from 150Hz to 400Hz (sometimes called the mudrange) and boost the highs at around 3000Hz. This will provide a solid low end, remove some of the mud in the midrange and accentuate the attack of the kick pedal on the drum. For the bass, we do pretty much the opposite; cut the lows where you boosted them on the kick (60-80Hz) boost the bass at around 120 – 150Hz which will provide a full bass sound (while occupying the frequency space we made by cutting the kick drum in this range), and boost the highs at around 900Hz since bass also provides information in that range as well. In short, we are emphasizing the frequencies that are important to the sound of each, while cutting the frequencies where they can conflict."

 

Applying the above we would hpf the bass guitar and not the kick drum - but the principle seems to be to do it to one not the other, so if doing it the other way around works for you then great.

 

But your point about hpf'ing all the vocal mics and in our case extending that to keys and electric guitar is a very good one - I've just put that through on our desk ready for the next gig on Sat 🙂

Edited July 18, 2023 by Al Krow

[TimR]

Yes. Kick and Bass guitar occupy similar ranges. The point to remember is live and recording are different animals. In the live situation your bass guitar will bleed into the kick mic. And it depends greatly on how well your drummer has tuned his drum.

 

Experimentation is key, but not at a gig sound check when everyone wants to get on. Might be worth setting aside a rehearsal purely to get technical issues sorted out. 

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, TimR said:

Yes. Kick and Bass guitar occupy similar ranges. The point to remember is live and recording are different animals. In the live situation your bass guitar will bleed into the kick mic. And it depends greatly on how well your drummer has tuned his drum.

 

Experimentation is key, but not at a gig sound check when everyone wants to get on. Might be worth setting aside a rehearsal purely to get technical issues sorted out. 

 

Cheers Tim.

 

Actually there's a pretty low risk of bass guitar bleed via kick drum mic for us, as my bass is routed purely through FoH via the desk and we are using IEMs for monitoring. 

 

So I guess that gives us a little more freedom to go for a more "text book" approach.