Subwoofer !!!

[nilorius]

So, our lead vocalist - leader started a new song and said that we should record it as soon as possible and make a video clip, too. Piano man claimed that his home studio is perfect for recording. At first drummer went to piano man and made a short record demo with synth, piano and drum samples. They mixed it at volume when there where a lot small clips in it. Ok, i took the direct(balanced) output signal from my amp (no big regulation in eq and a little gain) and connect with my interface (focusrite) to get a normal signal to my pc. Recorded my track over demo with Audacity soft. Everything sounded ok in my jbl pro monitors. So i sent it to the studio - piano man. He responded with the text that he just tested the mix with bass on a subwoofer and it was clipping all the time. He said it's ok and he will cut some frequencies in bass track and will set a limiter. I was in a small shock and didn't know how to respond. I really don't want to change a tone of my bass in the song by cutting frequencies. The music we play is light, 80' rock type. So what do You think about this subwoofer thing? Had someone the equal situation? 

[neepheid]

Surely clipping is more of an amplitude issue rather than a fault of any particular frequency?  Reduce the amplitude of the bass track to bring it in balance with the others in the overall mix, job done?

 

Or is this why I'm not a producer/engineer?

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, neepheid said:

Surely clipping is more of an amplitude issue rather than a fault of any particular frequency?  Reduce the amplitude of the bass track to bring it in balance with the others in the overall mix, job done?

 

Or is this why I'm not a producer/engineer?

 

Not really. The original recording may have sub frequencies that 'clip', unheard through the JBL monitors, but troublesome played through a sub. There's not much that can be doe to correct this except shelving these frequencies away; ideally the recording should be done again, being aware of the potential problem. In theory, filtering these sub frequencies out won't alter the tone as heard through the JBL's, as they were not heard in the first place. Looking at the recorded waveform would show up any low frequency clipping, I would have thought.
Just my tuppence-worth.

[nilorius]

35 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Not really. The original recording may have sub frequencies that 'clip', unheard through the JBL monitors, but troublesome played through a sub. There's not much that can be doe to correct this except shelving these frequencies away; ideally the recording should be done again, being aware of the potential problem. In theory, filtering these sub frequencies out won't alter the tone as heard through the JBL's, as they were not heard in the first place. Looking at the recorded waveform would show up any low frequency clipping, I would have thought.
Just my tuppence-worth.

I understand what You are saying, but the way i recorded the track (from direct out after gain and eq.) doesn't even give me chance to record such sub frequencies! Waveform also shows no clips at low frequencies.

[nilorius]

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

Surely clipping is more of an amplitude issue rather than a fault of any particular frequency?  Reduce the amplitude of the bass track to bring it in balance with the others in the overall mix, job done?

 

Or is this why I'm not a producer/engineer?

Amplitude was much lower than other tracks at that time, not possible to lower it more because then the bass wouldn't be heard at all.

[Dad3353]

There may be clipping in the bass (or any other frequencies, really...) which is not present in the individual tracks, but occurs once combined (mixed...) with other instruments. It's up to the engineer to determine how best to get the final result desired; the bass tone alone is not an indication of the tone in the context of the whole piece, with the other instruments. There is a question of both trust and competence in the person doing the mixing; if he/she is trusted and competent, the end result is what counts, not the individual tone. If in doubt, try to be present during the mixing phase, but be warned that it's often a source of conflict if there is disagreement, and can become unpleasant. Let the person do what's required, as long as the end result is perfect, I'd say. 

[ezbass]

Sounds like some judicial use of compression is all that’s required, which shouldn’t mess with the frequencies and just smooth out the peaks.

Edited June 17, 2023 by ezbass

[nilorius]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

There may be clipping in the bass (or any other frequencies, really...) which is not present in the individual tracks, but occurs once combined (mixed...) with other instruments. It's up to the engineer to determine how best to get the final result desired; the bass tone alone is not an indication of the tone in the context of the whole piece, with the other instruments. There is a question of both trust and competence in the person doing the mixing; if he/she is trusted and competent, the end result is what counts, not the individual tone. If in doubt, try to be present during the mixing phase, but be warned that it's often a source of conflict if there is disagreement, and can become unpleasant. Let the person do what's required, as long as the end result is perfect, I'd say. 

I think the problem is that in his studio carrier he only recorded vocals, synth and combined midi and wave samples, but never recorded guitars, bass, brass, drums etc.

[Dad3353]

This is all becoming just a little confusing. You stated earlier '... a short record demo with synth, piano and drum samples. They mixed it at volume when there where a lot small clips in it ...'. These days, with ordinarily decent gear (such as your Focusrite...), there should be no question of clipping, ever. It used to be the case, in bygone days of yore, that the dynamic of of the systems used were very sensitive to clipping as the level had to be maintained high enough to combat the inherent noise threshold. This is no longer the case, and recording individual tracks at relatively low levels is preferred, the noise being now insignificant. In mixing, here, too, levels need not be high, for the same reason. Only at the final stage of mastering could one envisage raising the overall level (still below clipping, naturally...) to match the output medium targeted and the style of music. If there is any clipping at all in the very first drum/keys/samples mix, there is already a problem, and red flags are raised. Hmm... I'm not sure that any single word of advice is going to be useful here. It sounds as though a training course in the basics of recording/mixing is required, or maybe another twenty years of bitter experience, to learn the hard way. 

[nilorius]

22 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

This is all becoming just a little confusing. You stated earlier '... a short record demo with synth, piano and drum samples. They mixed it at volume when there where a lot small clips in it ...'. These days, with ordinarily decent gear (such as your Focusrite...), there should be no question of clipping, ever. It used to be the case, in bygone days of yore, that the dynamic of of the systems used were very sensitive to clipping as the level had to be maintained high enough to combat the inherent noise threshold. This is no longer the case, and recording individual tracks at relatively low levels is preferred, the noise being now insignificant. In mixing, here, too, levels need not be high, for the same reason. Only at the final stage of mastering could one envisage raising the overall level (still below clipping, naturally...) to match the output medium targeted and the style of music. If there is any clipping at all in the very first drum/keys/samples mix, there is already a problem, and red flags are raised. Hmm... I'm not sure that any single word of advice is going to be useful here. It sounds as though a training course in the basics of recording/mixing is required, or maybe another twenty years of bitter experience, to learn the hard way. 

Sounds like You are absolutely right !

[mrtcat]

Sounds to me like the guy needs to learn to mix. With synths, pianos and bass there will be tons of lows and he just needs to understand how to make them sit together in a mix using the tools at his disposal. 

I wouldn't be too precious about him cutting frequencies though. Most mix engineers will do that as part of the mixing process. It's the ones that can do the least possible to make it all hang together that are the best at their craft. It's not easy though when individual band members are doing their own recordings. The best mixes start with the best sound captures.