xilddx Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='bumfrog' post='477017' date='May 1 2009, 01:54 PM']Can you see me all the way from up there on your high horse? I was merely offering another view, and you come along and act all high and mighty, even when I'd asked for advice as well. Then you go on and try and link it in with my day job... wtf??? Shame, as most people on here seem very approachable and helpful, yourself with that post on the other hand just smack of ego....[/quote] Sorry bumfrog, I should have put a smiley on there to leaven the message Please don't be offended. Actually I'm having a bad day dealing with a bunch of unprofessional managers who won't comply with their statutory duties. So please accept my apologies if I sound a bit miffed I'm not on a high horse, although it may come over that way. I just can't stand unprofessionalism, that's all. If it's just a hobby, no worries. Of course I have an ego, don't you? What's wrong with having an ego? EDIT: Just to be clear, I completely agree with the OP. Edited May 1, 2009 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='silddx' post='477021' date='May 1 2009, 02:01 PM']Sorry bumfrog, I should have put a smiley on there to leaven the message Please don't be offended. I'm not on a high horse, although it may come over that way. I just can't stand unprofessionalism, that's all. If it's just a hobby, no worries. Of course I have an ego, don't you? What's wrong with having an ego?[/quote] no problem, one of the problems of the internet sometimes is it's hard to get over some emotions. No offence taken (big hug) I think from my point of view, I would love to be more professional, but it's impossible to do that if the rest of the band aren't up to it, so I've just had to kick back and go with the flow. Plus over the years (having been a roadie/soundman etc) you kind of become a bit blase to bands who (not aimed at you, just a general thing) want the most perfect sound, in a dive of a venue when you know full well it's never going to sound good, and the punters are going to be so drunk they wont care. I think a more horses for courses attitude type of thing. Ie, if you're playing a decent venue and people have come to pay to see *you* then yes, I wholeheartidly agree, a certain level of professionalism and giving the crowd something for their money is a must. It's just when you get a dodgy covers band at a pub that want to spend an hour soundchecking, then all the way through the gig they keep asking for changes to monitors and levels etc and they spend more time doing that then actually playing and having a good time, it makes me a bit sad really I guess. I hope that makes a bit more sense, it's friday afternoon after all Ego's are ok to a certain point, providing they are kept on stage imho. But then I am a bit of a hippy, (minus the hair I might hasten to add) so that's probably why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='477031' date='May 1 2009, 02:12 PM']no problem, one of the problems of the internet sometimes is it's hard to get over some emotions. No offence taken (big hug) I think from my point of view, I would love to be more professional, but it's impossible to do that if the rest of the band aren't up to it, so I've just had to kick back and go with the flow. Plus over the years (having been a roadie/soundman etc) you kind of become a bit blase to bands who (not aimed at you, just a general thing) want the most perfect sound, in a dive of a venue when you know full well it's never going to sound good, and the punters are going to be so drunk they wont care. I think a more horses for courses attitude type of thing. Ie, if you're playing a decent venue and people have come to pay to see *you* then yes, I wholeheartidly agree, a certain level of professionalism and giving the crowd something for their money is a must. It's just when you get a dodgy covers band at a pub that want to spend an hour soundchecking, then all the way through the gig they keep asking for changes to monitors and levels etc and they spend more time doing that then actually playing and having a good time, it makes me a bit sad really I guess. I hope that makes a bit more sense, it's friday afternoon after all Ego's are ok to a certain point, providing they are kept on stage imho. But then I am a bit of a hippy, (minus the hair I might hasten to add) so that's probably why [/quote] Big hug back atcha I see where you're coming from mate, I hate long soundchecks too. We usually rehearse once, turn up, do a line check, half a song and that's it. We all wholeheartedly believe that being the sound guy is one of the worst jobs in the world That's why we buy them a drinkie and give them a line list. I've seen so many bands using a soundcheck as a rehearsal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='476971' date='May 1 2009, 01:11 PM']Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not having a go. But you do sound like an IT guy As in you know exactly what to do and what needs doing, but then you sound (apologies if i'm wrong on this bit) like you are getting frustrated/annoyed with those people who don't have the same knowledge as you. I understand that when you reach a certain level of knowledge as it were that people then tend to start getting anal about stuff, but what tends to happen when people get to that stage is they tend to forget that actually there's quite a lot of people out there who play just for the fun of it, and really aren't that bothered about having the best sound they can as it really doesn't make any difference to them. Yes, I do agree with the sentiments of this thread about how things sound a lot better if people know about eq'ing, using fx properly etc, but to a certain degree, I find that once you start getting obsessed with those things they can get in the way of actually enjoying the playing, if you get my drift. Also purely from a spectators point of view, one can start to let things like that get in the way of actually enjoying the music and performance. Yes, I would love that every gig that I go to have well balanced sound, nicely seperated instruments etc, but that (in my experience) is the exception rather than the rule - as a few people have pointed out, the drummer, I feel, is the benchmark for this. Most gigs I go to, the drummer is too loud, so the sound people can't get the vocals up high enough to be heard over everybody competing with the drummer without it feeding back. I guess all I'm trying to say is to those that get annoyed by these things, watch your heart rate dudes, it's not worth busting a gut over EDIT:- Just out of interest, if anybody has any guides or advice about all of this stuff for live playing, I'd be most appreciative of some guidance [/quote] Yup, I'm in IT. Yup I think I know my stuff in Sound Engineering too. Thanks for noticing. I like to talk to people before they come to a studio and give them enough knowledge to make their time there as productive as possible so that they, and I get the best result. It certainly reflects on me as much as them if the result isn't as good as it could be. If they then don't take on board the advice given then that is [b]definitely[/b] frustrating - think about this, if they play that result to someone who thinks the sound is rubbish and then tell that person where it was recorded, its a very bad advert. Now I don't think anyone I've ever recorded has actually sounded rubbish myself. But it may not be exactly what they wanted and so they may think it could be better. So they will then go through the whole 'Well we wanted it to sound a bit more blah blah blah' to whoever is listening, and that too reflects badly on me and the studio. So actually it does really matter that they take this stuff on board completely because not only will they not get what they want, but I will get a negative response to my work because of it. And that in essence is incredibly frustrating, especially if they didn't do some simple things as requested to help me give them a great result in time and in budget. And all of this can equally be applied to a gig. And no no gig [u]has[/u] to sound rubbish with a bad mix. Not ever. It is a result of:- * poor musicianship * bad decisions regarding tone/fx * poor/broken gear * poor sound engineering * poor preparation * lack of knowledge * more often than not too much volume * poor acoustics (which could in almost all situations be improved, usually quite cheaply) Or a combination of all of the above. You go ahead and carry on getting by and not obsessing for as long as you like, I really don't mind, its entirely your choice. I'll go on my merry way making people I work with sound as good as they possibly can whenever I can, because I love to. The OP was after some tips though. Just the other day a friend of mine came over, and I played him a demo of a track I'd just done with my Squire VMJ fretless. I didn't tell him that track was my band, and he promptly wandered off to make a coffee. When he came back I asked him to listen again and he was sure it was a commercial release not a demo at all. In fact that was why he gone and made coffee in the first place, cos he didn't think what I had played could have been the demo I'd mentioned a few days before. He was staggered at the quality. Thats a tick in the win column in my book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Would it be worth compiling some of all this knowledge and getting it put in the basschat wiki or a sticky? I know I'd find it useful Stuff Like Band sounds - how to get your band sounding better as a whole / how to tailor to different venues / tips and tricks and then Also maybe advice on Studio time / Best ways to prepare etc? Just I find useful bits get lost in threads.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='477041' date='May 1 2009, 02:25 PM']It is a result of:- * poor musicianship * bad decisions regarding tone/fx * poor/broken gear * poor sound engineering * poor preparation * lack of knowledge * more often than not too much volume * poor acoustics (which could in almost all situations be improved, usually quite cheaply)[/quote] think you've described half the bands / venues I've been in with that list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='477057' date='May 1 2009, 02:33 PM'] think you've described half the bands / venues I've been in with that list [/quote] Oh don't worry I've played in them too! IMO the more you can do to control your part of the operation and the more parts of the operation you have some control over (obviously the acoustics are only improvable often by bringing a big crowd!) the better yo can make things. If you have a great sound guy and PA, if you keep you kit in great working order, if you know your parts, if you use sensible tones/fx live to get the best of any venue, if you control your volume, if you perform with gusto and aplomb then 9/10 you'll sound great. And I hate hour long soundchecks too, 15 to 20 minutes is more than enough for anyone in a smaller venue. I'm aiming these comments at the people who play in little venues (ie most of us) as we dont have the luxury of a bunch of blokes to soundcheck everything for us. So its even more important to get control over this stuff yourselves such that when you get to play you have the best chance of sounding really good to the punters in the shortest possible time frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476878' date='May 1 2009, 11:59 AM']I wish vocalists and bands would consider bvs as important as lead - they really are....[/quote] A programme on BVs on Radio 4 right now .. R.E.S.P.E.C.T. - The Art of Backing Vocals "Nick Barraclough delves into the world of backing vocalists, from the fluffy 50s to the stunning sophistication of today's jazzers, the innovations brought by The Beatles and The Beach Boys and the multi-tracked world of Joni Mitchell and The Carpenters" [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kgfc1"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kgfc1[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OldGit' post='476537' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:44 PM']Maxrossell, you should write a leaflet ...[/quote] Okay - a leaflet might be an overstatement here, but here's some more or less useful advice, for how to practice effectively, with a good sound: [b][u]REHEARSAL SPACE[/u][/b] 1. Make sure you have a rehearsal room that is at least tidy, if not clean. Untidy rooms, as well as just not being particularly nice places to be, will lead to things getting lost and damaged. Pay particular care to how your cables, instrument and power, are organised, as jumbles of both together can lead to noise issues, and being tangled up can damage an instrument cable. Moreover, you may not realise it, but that massive heap of junk piled up against the wall might be having more of an effect on your sound than you thought. 2. Is your room a cold place? If it is, chances are you won't sound as good. For a variety of reasons, instruments don't sound as good when they're cold, and that's compounded by the fact that your ears don't work as well when you're cold. If your rehearsal space gets cold, do yourself a favour, get in early and run an electric heater for a while before you start practicing. And a few nice hot brews for everyone will make a pleasant start to the rehearsal as well. 3. Look at the walls in your rehearsal space. Bare breezeblock? Maybe that's why you don't sound as good as you could. Sound bounces as much as it can, and a lot of sound in a small room with hard walls will create your very own short echo chamber, guaranteed to muddle everything up and kill all the detail in your music. A few offcuts of carpet stuck to the walls will be cheap (or free if you find them in a skip ) and will help the problem considerably - and might brighten the place up a bit as well! [b][u]GEAR[/u][/b] 1. First of all, is your gear in good condition? It may have been fine a few months ago, but several months in the abovementioned cold rehearsal space, punctuated with a few boisterous outings to pubs and clubs, might just have taken the edge off your gear's condition. If you can't store it in a clean, warm, dry place, then you should at least endeavour to keep your gear clean (amp covers are a great idea), and get it checked at least once a year to make sure everything's working the way it should. If you get to know your gear well enough you can check it yourself, which will save you costly technician fees. Treat your gear well, it will last longer while you play it, and it'll make you more money if you sell it. 2. I don't mean to offend anyone, but is your gear good enough? Of course, we all know that a good musican can make anything sound pretty good, but that becomes quite relative when said musician is playing a cheap guitar into a cheap practice amp. You don't have to break the bank to get good tone, but you do have to spend your money on the right things. Notorious false economies are "budget" stacks (full stacks for under £400 are out there, but they're not good) and anything loaded with dozens of DSP effects. The second-hand market is your friend, but be careful what you buy. If you're trying to buy cheap, try to avoid anything too complex. 3. Is your gear [i]the right gear?[/i] It might sound obvious, but if you're in a thrash-metal band, you may find that a Rickenbacker into a Fender Twin isn't getting you that raw aggressive chunk you're after. Think about it when you're shopping. You may have always wanted to own a top-of-the-range Ibanez RG with a 24-fret neck and a Floyd Rose, but there's really not much point in all that if you're going to be playing Oasis covers. Take a look at the pro bands in your genre - what gear do they use? What gear do they NOT use? What gear wouldn't they use even if it came with a free b***j**? 4. Don't get duped by the notion that such-and-such a piece of gear is an open door to a whole new dimension of playing. In fact, most gear advertised on that basis tends to be inferior to gear advertised on its own merits. Good gear, some talent and bags of practice are what make a great performing musician, and in the vast majority of situations you will be able to get by using just that, so think long and hard about what you really need before putting down any money on that Digigadget UberFX-o-Tron 3000. [b][u]SETTING UP[/u][/b] 1. Think about your position in the band, and the position of your gear. The drums and bass are the backbone of most rock sounds, so have them in the middle, next to each other. If you have two guitars, put one on either side. Arrange your PA to have an even spread. And everyone should stand in such a way that they can hear pretty much what everyone else is hearing - and try to get that as close to what you'd want to hear from a stage as you can. 2. A rehearsal is a live situation, so you need a soundcheck. You have to make sure the drums sound right, and then the bass with the drums, and then each guitar with the bass and drums, and then lastly the vocals. Don't rush it, take your time, really listen to what's going on. A good balance now will save your ears and make you sound so much better. And soundcheck here is not just "how loud", but also "does it sound good". A guitar on its own needs good bass to fill the bass end. But in a band, there's already a guy playing bass - so maybe you can turn your bass control down a bit? Hey yeah, the sound is clearer, and I sound louder! Magic! 3. Turn down. You play too loud. Yes, you do. Remember that this is a rehearsal, you're not playing Wembley (yet). You need a bit of ballsy volume so you can get a good vibe, but is there really any point in deafening yourself? Right now you need to hear not only everything you're doing, but also everything everyone else is doing. The best way to do that is for everyone to bring their volume down a notch. And do it BEFORE you start playing, not after. If you do it after, when you turn down it will seem too quiet. [b][u]PLAYING[/u][/b] 1. Talk to each other. I know we're all hairy manly men and all that, but we have to communicate to get stuff done. Few and far between are bands that make it without discussing their common goals and how to achieve them every now and then. You don't have to hold a conference or anything, but just keep in mind that there are other people in this with you, and they want things too. If you care about what other people want, they'll care about what you want, and chances are the middle ground will be good music. 2. It's about the song. Not your lead playing, not your bass solo, not your amazing drumming. Whether it's a piece of music you wrote or someone else wrote, people will always know if you chose it because you love the music, or because it gives you a chance to show off. Forget your ego for a minute, and just enjoy the fact that the music is good without trying to be the best thing about it. 3. Take breaks. Smoke cigarettes, have coffee, drink a coke, rest your ears. Get some perspective on what you've just played. You won't achieve much by tearing through your set in record time and then going home. You rehearse to improve, so take the time to think about how to do that, and then try to do it. This is your ideal chance to iron out creases in your songs, a process that is infinitely more difficult if you've just played seven songs in a row. 4. Stay away from that volume knob. "But I can't hear myself!" Stand closer to your amp, then. Stand more in-line with the speakers. Move around a bit. If you turn up, you'll be too loud. Then other people will have to turn up, too. Hey presto, volume wars. You don't want that. [u][b]AFTER PLAYING[/b][/u] 1. Pack your gear down. Be nice to it. Take the extra time to make sure it's all squared the way you want it to be - it'll save you more time at the beginning of your next rehearsal. 2. Make arrangements for the next rehearsal. If it's tomorrow night or a month away, talk it out and make sure everyone's on the same page for when you're doing it and what you plan to work on. If you can't make it, people will thank you for giving them plenty of notice, as opposed to cursing you if you let them know an hour before you're due to turn up. Your band may not be your best or closests friends, but even if theyare, it's a good idea to remain businesslike. Keep money matters and such until the end of rehearsal - starting a rehearsal with an argument over rent owed is a sure-fire way to have a bad jam session. But do keep tabs on who owes what, to avoid resentment and misunderstandings down the line. 3. Make mental (or physical) notes to yourself about where you felt you could do with some work. It's easy to criticise others' failings, but not so easy to identify your own. But this is when it'll be freshest in your mind, so think about what you could improve about your playing, and do some work towards correcting it for the next rehearsal - you may find that just seeing you improve is a much more effective way to make your bandmates try to improve also, instead of just telling them where they're messing up. 4. If it's been a bad rehearsal for whatever reason, don't dwell on it. Dwelling on it will lead to making rash decisions in a panic. For most of us this is a hobby, it costs us more than we make from it. So don't feel like if something's gone wrong you have to fix it immediately or it's the end of the World. Always take your time over things like that, talk to the other band members about it, and see if they have any ideas of their own to improve things. Firing people or quitting are absolutely last-resort decisions, and there's almost always something you can do to avoid them. 5. This is an obvious one. Practice outside of rehearsal. As much as you can. Rehearsal is not the time you spend improving your playing. Rehearsal is the time you spend working on performing music. Improving your playing is what you do on your own time, and the more you do it, the easier rehearsal time will be for all. Take that same time to come up with new and fresh ideas to bring in to the band. They don't have to be finished items, they can be just little riffs or chord progressions or lyrics or whatever - as long as when it comes to writing a song with the band, you're not all stood in a circle with nothing to work on. Edited May 24, 2009 by maxrossell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 ^^ Excellent .. Can you put that in the wiki? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 Done, new wiki page now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='496479' date='May 24 2009, 09:23 AM']Done, new wiki page now.[/quote] Cool just need to remember to point people that way now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='476916' date='May 1 2009, 12:26 PM']I rest me case. Bloody stupid response. Course she does, even if she only says 'I've got my timbres sorted, but I want the pads to sit in the mix like they do in this track' would be better. Musicians are the bane of engineers lives [/quote] To keep this in perspective here, and with all due respects to sound engineers, but without musicians there would be no sound engineers. If you can't work with musicians then I'd suggest that sound engineering is a good career (or even hobby) choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='495980' date='May 23 2009, 12:27 PM']2. A rehearsal is a live situation, so you need a soundcheck. You have to make sure the drums sound right, and then the bass with the drums, and then each guitar with the bass and drums, and then lastly the vocals. Don't rush it, take your time, really listen to what's going on. A good balance now will save your ears and make you sound so much better. And soundcheck here is not just "how loud", but also "does it sound good". A guitar on its own needs good bass to fill the bass end. But in a band, there's already a guy playing bass - so maybe you can turn your bass control down a bit? Hey yeah, the sound is clearer, and I sound louder! Magic![/quote] oh dear... that is so hard to get guitarists to do... turning the bass down on their rigs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 [quote name='Clive Thorne' post='496586' date='May 24 2009, 01:32 PM']To keep this in perspective here, and with all due respects to sound engineers, but without musicians there would be no sound engineers. If you can't work with musicians then I'd suggest that sound engineering is a good career (or even hobby) choice.[/quote] There IS a smiley there, Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='496663' date='May 24 2009, 04:29 PM']There IS a smiley there, Clive [/quote] Fair point OG. and to be fair I've often said myself that 'work would be great if it weren't for the ******* customers"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee4 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Just had aquick scan of some of the posts here and most of the complaints center around too loud guitar rigs.Our lead player has gone from a Fender Deville(about 60 watts I belive)to 2 Cornfords(max 12 watts each).He now has a fantastic tone which does not drown out any other instrument.Turn down,tone in,and play on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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