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TommyK

Muse - Knights of Cydonia

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So this may have been covered before but i cant find it if it has....

I'm depping for a local band who do this track. If you don't know it...:[url="https://youtu.be/z9D71pQaTnc"]https://youtu.be/z9D71pQaTnc[/url]


The galloping/triplet verse bit at the start.... 0:49 - 2:40.... For the musically ignoramus (i.e me) What is going on here? I thought it was in E minor to start with but it seems to change key almost at the end of each measure? ... or is it just starting in a different place? Or am i just being thick?

I've learnt it by ear and written it down which is fine, i've played it live with them 3 times fine and the 4th time ballsed it up cos i got lost with my reading.... oops... (Also they play tuned down half a step which doesn't help me at all when i get lost!)

I cant seem to memorise it, if i knew what was going on it might help me perhaps?

Thanks kindly
TK

Edited by TommyK

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Just transcribing this now after reading this post. To me it looks like it does indeed change key. Will upload when I've finished. Cheers

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So it looks to me like it's pretty much the exact same progression, it just changes key so if you learn the fingering, you should be fine, just move it up and down the neck!

Bear in mind I'm not too sure of the theory behind this myself, and while I think the chords are right, I'm not sure I've put it in the right key. To me it looks like it goes from Em to Cm then to Abm. Can anyone confirm whether it should be Abm or G#m? It was the chord of G in the Abm section that was confusing me, so I decided to put it in Abm.

[attachment=220977:Knights of Cydonia - Bass.pdf]

Edited by Higgie

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[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465317109' post='3067083']
So it looks to me like it's pretty much the exact same progression, it just changes key so if you learn the fingering, you should be fine, just move it up and down the neck!

Bear in mind I'm not too sure of the theory behind this myself, and while I think the chords are right, I'm not sure I've put it in the right key. To me it looks like it goes from Em to Cm then to Abm. Can anyone confirm whether it should be Abm or G#m? It was the chord of G in the Abm section that was confusing me, so I decided to put it in Abm.

[attachment=220977:Knights of Cydonia - Bass.pdf]
[/quote]

Yep, begins in Em, modulates to Cm, Abm(G#m) and finally back to Em. I spotted a Bm at bar 15 which should be major.
I would analyse it like this: [attachment=220978:KNIGHTS OF CYDONIA.pdf]

~Joe

Edited by Joebass

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Ah! Yeah didn't realise I'd put that as Bm. D'oh! Is there any general consensus as to whether it's Abm or G#m? Does it make a difference?

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I transcribed this a few years ago and can confirm it cycles backwards in jumps of two tones: Em > Cm > Abm* >Em. It reminds me of a Shadows number!

*As a bass/guitar player, I find it much easier yo read in G#m than Abm!

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Hi TommyK, how's the kids? :)

G#m I believe, but heck as long as we understand what it is right?

I play this song with my tribute, looks about right as described above. Very "old school" progression really.

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[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465321399' post='3067139']
Ah! Yeah didn't realise I'd put that as Bm. D'oh! Is there any general consensus as to whether it's Abm or G#m? Does it make a difference?
[/quote]

They're just enharmonic equivalents, no right or wrong but most people find it easier to read 5 sharps than 7 flats.

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[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465317109' post='3067083']
G in the Abm section that was confusing me, so I decided to put it in Abm.
[attachment=220977:Knights of Cydonia - Bass.pdf]
[/quote]

The G chord is part of a modulation and is derived from E minor. On your transcription, you should be changing to E minor at bar 59.

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I did think G#m would be easier to read, and would also avoid all the Cb and Fb nonsense, but seeing as it had gone to Cm I thought I'd keep things flat instead of jumping between #s and bs! If there's no actual "Correct" answer then fair play. So in my transcription I'm changing key too late... Is that just because the chord is derived from Em? If that bar was a chord from G#m/Abm would the key change technically be the next bar then? Is it just common practice to change key as soon as you get to a chord that is not diatonic?

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[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465323417' post='3067183']
Is it just common practice to change key as soon as you get to a chord that is not diatonic?
[/quote]

No, non-diatonic chords are used all the time (Neopolitan, Augmented Sixth etc.). If you respell the Fb and Cb as E and B, you should see a clear progression in Eminor.

Here's my brief analysis:

The main theme consists of 2 phrases, each phrase is made up of 8 bars. The first (Question) phrase is in E minor, ending with a modulation into Cmin for the next (Answer) phrase. After a short 4 bar interlude, the whole sequence repeats, transposed up a minor 6th/ down a major 3rd.

Edited by Joebass

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Thanks for your posts they've been very helpful! I'm curious as to why it's a chord of D# in bar 8 of the second page? I get that it is setting up the modulation that will follow, but why wouldn't it be an Eb?

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[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465330963' post='3067314']
Thanks for your posts they've been very helpful! I'm curious as to why it's a chord of D# in bar 8 of the second page? I get that it is setting up the modulation that will follow, but why wouldn't it be an Eb?
[/quote]

It's not setting up the modulation, it [i]is [/i]the modulation. The D# has a clear dominant function leading to the G#m, an Eb here would obscure that.

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I see, so why doesn't the key signature change 2 bars earlier instead of having the accidentals leading up to it?

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[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465334340' post='3067370']
I see, so why doesn't the key signature change 2 bars earlier instead of having the accidentals leading up to it?
[/quote]

It's just common practice. It's better to have the new key signature coincide with the double barline/new musical section; it adds visual clarity to the form.

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[quote name='Joebass' timestamp='1465322426' post='3067159']
They're just enharmonic equivalents, no right or wrong but most people find it easier to read 5 sharps than 7 flats.
[/quote]
True, but if it is doing tertiary modulations, i.e, moving by major third, then the 'spelling' would by Abm rather than G#m, but agree doesn't matter too much. Beethoven did tertiary modulations, so it's not new!

Edited by zbd1960

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Good point :)
You would have to change the spelling somewhere, though.[list]
[*]Em - Cm = Tertiary
[*]Cm - Abm = tertiary
[*]Abm - Fbm?
[/list]
I guess you could change from Abm to G#m going into the new section.

Edited by Joebass

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Wow!!

Brilliant responses! Now it makes more sense

Thanks guys...+I'm glad i wasn't the only one on this number!!




(Kids are doing great Harry thanks! :))

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