peteb Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1360664451' post='1974079'] It's not people's individual opinions of The Beatles that is really the issue here, it's the denial of their global influence when it's there for all to see. It's like hating football because it's a daft game played by over-paid prima donna half-wits (which seems a fair summary to me) and then denying the national influence of the game that millions of people watch and enjoy each week ( which would be plain stupid wheat he evidence is clear). That's all. YMM indeed V . . . . so let's all acknowledge that it does - sometimes for billions of people. Let's face it, Simon Cowell is also a hugely influential music figure for that very reason. [/quote] I think that we are arguing at cross purposes here! When someone suggests that the Beatles may possibly be over-rated, they are not denying their global influence when as you it is there for all to see. What they are saying is that their musical legacy, huge and influential as it may be, does not justify the even bigger hype surrounding it. Simon Cowell is indeed a hugely influential figure in the current music / entertainment business – are you really trying to equate his artistic value with that of the Beatles?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1360664564' post='1974082'] Says the man who went to the trouble of writing a whole book about one of his musical heroes [/quote] Awful to admit it, FF, but PC is not one of my heroes. I chose him because it would have a market! Oh, the shame of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360666464' post='1974118'] I think that we are arguing at cross purposes here! When someone suggests that the Beatles may possibly be over-rated, they are not denying their global influence when as you it is there for all to see. What they are saying is that their musical legacy, huge and influential as it may be, does not justify the even bigger hype surrounding it. Simon Cowell is indeed a hugely influential figure in the current music / entertainment business – are you really trying to equate his artistic value with that of the Beatles?? [/quote] What I'm saying is that there is no way to measure the 'value' of these artist's output without reference to their popularity. If, as you seem to accept, their musical legacy is huge and influential, how can it then be argued that it is over- hyped? How would you suggest we measure 'artistic value' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1360666664' post='1974122'] Awful to admit it, FF, but PC is not one of my heroes. I chose him because it would have a market! Oh, the shame of it! [/quote] So if someone not particularly interested in The Beatles hops onto a Beatles bus tour around Liverpool and stops outside Macca's childhood home then that's OK because they are not a big Beatles fan, just curious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1360667196' post='1974133'] What I'm saying is that there is no way to measure the 'value' of these artist's output without reference to their popularity. If, as you seem to accept, their musical legacy is huge and influential, how can it then be argued that it is over- hyped? How would you suggest we measure 'artistic value' ? [/quote] [color=#222222]An individual measures 'artistic value' in a subjective way – but if you say that is invalid then you are dismissing a whole tradition of artistic criticism going back many centuries![/color] [color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color] [color=#222222]I would suggest that even though they have a genuine musical legacy, it is nowhere as good as popularly accepted nor does it justify the incredible hype that surrounds the Beatles – therefore they are 'over-rated' in purely musical terms![/color] [color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color] [color=#222222]Of course, this view is subjective, but still worthy of debate and should not be dismissed out of hand due to a blind devotion to a pop group of fifty years ago. I am a big Led Zep fan, but I don’t consider them to be above criticism and neither are the Beatles…![/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1360664451' post='1974079'] It's not people's individual opinions of The Beatles that is really the issue here, it's the denial of their global influence[/quote] You've said that several times now - and not only you - but I've yet to see where anyone is denying their influence. Not liking what they did isn't the same thing. How can it be "really the issue here", if it's not happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='hunt the shunt' timestamp='1360669851' post='1974174'] I think a lot of posters are saying that they don't like the Beatles so they can't have been all that. [/quote] Haha, spot on mate. They sound like my pupils when we don't sing hip songs at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I have said it before & will say it again. I've tried several times over the years to 'Get' the Beatles but failed every time. I just don't like their music & I don't think I ever will. They were a big band that probably have influenced loads of stuff that I am unaware of, but lets face it as someone stated before, you can never understand the change they brought about unless you remember a world without them, but lets face it in 15-20 years time no one will be alive who can so they will fall back to memory I suppose. It is also worth noting that one of the main reasons why I don't like the Beatles is that fervent almost religious fan base they have. This thread has just re-enforced my opinion of that.....a little bit spooky to be honest. If you love the Beatles & have fun listening to their music that's great, but don't act so offended if other people do not agree. Music is something we all have a passion for but the world would be crap if we all loved the same thing. Chill out guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Pick any artist, from any genre -- art, music literature, film -- [b][i]anyone [/i][/b]-- and one can argue that they're over-rated. It's meaningless. In the meantime, over 30 years after their demise, the Beatles continue to influence songwriters and musicians, their music is studied and played by musicians from all walks of life and their music continues to be sell in the millions. What else do you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360674474' post='1974300'] Pick any artist, from any genre -- art, music literature, film -- [b][i]anyone [/i][/b]-- and one can argue that they're over-rated. It's meaningless. In the meantime, over 30 years after their demise, the Beatles continue to influence songwriters and musicians, their music is studied and played by musicians from all walks of life and their music continues to be sell in the millions. What else do you want? [/quote] They want to like them but can't. It's easier to state there's something wrong with the world than yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1360674172' post='1974293'] I have said it before & will say it again. I've tried several times over the years to 'Get' the Beatles but failed every time. I just don't like their music & I don't think I ever will. They were a big band that probably have influenced loads of stuff that I am unaware of, but lets face it as someone stated before, you can never understand the change they brought about unless you remember a world without them, but lets face it in 15-20 years time no one will be alive who can so they will fall back to memory I suppose. It is also worth noting that one of the main reasons why I don't like the Beatles is that fervent almost religious fan base they have. This thread has just re-enforced my opinion of that.....a little bit spooky to be honest. If you love the Beatles & have fun listening to their music that's great, but don't act so offended if other people do not agree. Music is something we all have a passion for but the world would be crap if we all loved the same thing. Chill out guys [/quote] You shouldn't base your musical taste on a bands fan base. You've got it wrong from the beginning there pal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1360674474' post='1974300']In the meantime, over 30 years after their demise, the Beatles continue to influence songwriters and musicians.[/quote] That phrase in itself is meaningless & whether it's Dylan or Dylan Thomas a phrase that's thrown around far too much in these vacuous days of non-inspirartion - such "influences" should be left up to the musician in person to admit to - and not have it anointed onto him by an obsessed fan. Noel gallagher excepted, because he admitted it, but there again, he nicked riffs off Marc Bolan & Mott too, it's no big thing. It's a safe bet that most of those involved in yesterday's fiasco would have agreed to be "influenced" by Beatles just to get the publicity. Edited February 12, 2013 by Big_Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1360675067' post='1974314'] That phrase in itself is meaningless & whether it's Dylan or Dylan Thomas a phrase that's thrown around far too much in these vacuous days of non-inspirartion - such "influences" should be left up to the musician in person to admit to - and not have it anointed onto him by an obsessed fan. Noel gallagher excepted, because he admitted it, but there again, he nicked riffs off Marc Bolan & Mott too, it's no big thing. It's a safe bet that most of those involved in yesterday's fiasco would have agreed to be "influenced" by Beatles just to get the publicity. [/quote] Have you listened to the Beatles at all or are you just being silly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Perennial' timestamp='1360675228' post='1974317'] Have you listened to the Beatles at all or are you just being silly? [/quote] Since you've hardly been on this forum long enough to take a dump I would suggest in future you read a whole thread before making ridiculous posts like that; I've already said twice - at least - in this thread that I own several Beatles recordings across two formats. AFAIC they're just another set of recordings that have ended up in a corner of a shelf of stuff I barely listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1360675476' post='1974327'] Since you've hardly been on this forum long enough to take a dump I would suggest in future you read a whole thread before making ridiculous posts like that; I've already said twice - at least - in this thread that I own several Beatles recordings across two formats. AFAIC they're just another set of recordings that have ended up in a corner of a shelf of stuff I barely listen to. [/quote] I didn't ask if you had any Beatles albums. I asked if you had LISTENED to them. Not judged, just listened. No need to be violent just because I don't share your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Perennial' timestamp='1360675812' post='1974339'] I didn't ask if you had any Beatles albums. I asked if you had LISTENED to them. Not judged, just listened. No need to be violent just because I don't share your opinion. [/quote] Speaking of "judging", I'm judging from your replies to all of the posts on this page alone, that your replies are there just to wind others up "pal" ............ and rack up your post count. Naturally like everyone else on this forum I buy CDs or other media just to look at the pretty pictures on the cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360668509' post='1974155'] [color=#222222]An individual measures 'artistic value' in a subjective way – but if you say that is invalid then you are dismissing a whole tradition of artistic criticism going back many centuries![/color] [/quote] But I'm not saying that. Nor am I saying that an individual's subjective assessment of 'artistic value' is not valid - of course it is, [u]to them[/u]. [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360668509' post='1974155'] [color=#222222]I would suggest that even though they have a genuine musical legacy, it is nowhere as good as popularly accepted nor does it justify the incredible hype that surrounds the Beatles – therefore they are 'over-rated' in purely musical terms![/color] [/quote] This is the bit I dispute. You cannot define 'how good' their accepted musical legacy and influence is [u]without[/u] taking into account their massive, possibly unparallelled, popularity. THAT is what defines their legacy, influence and 'artistic value'. In this context, how [u]can[/u] an artist be 'over rated'? It's a pointless statement. [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1360668509' post='1974155'] [color=#222222]Of course, this view is subjective, but still worthy of debate and should not be dismissed out of hand due to a blind devotion to a pop group of fifty years ago. I am a big Led Zep fan, but I don’t consider them to be above criticism and neither are the Beatles…![/color] [/quote] Exactly. I most certainly don't consider The Beatles to be above criticism and I'm not particularly interested if people like them or not. I'm arguing that an artist cannot be 'over-rated'. That's when these sorts of debates spill over into ridiculousness and become worthless. It's like when someone says something like "xyz is a crap bassist" even though they are part of a globally popular and successful band - their global success and popularity is the very thing that gives them artistic merit. They can't be "over-rated" because there is no definitive scale against which to rate them in the first place. Edited February 12, 2013 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1360676202' post='1974351']It's like when someone says something like "xyz is a crap bassist" even though they are part of a globally popular and successful band - their global success and popularity is the very thing that gives them artistic merit.[/quote] Aaah, ...... you mean like Sid Vicious? Edited February 12, 2013 by Big_Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 It has become almost impossible to say you don't like The Beatles---people throw proper hairy canary hissy fits if you do (just read the last few pages).I think its because lots of Beatles fans are unable to appreciate that it is entirely possible to accept how influential and important the Beatles were whilst not actually enjoying their artistic output. I like The Beatles (although they do have quite a few turds hidden amongst the gems) but just because something is important and influential doesn't mean you have to actually like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1360676201' post='1974350'] Speaking of "judging", I'm judging from your replies to all of the posts on this page alone, that your replies are there just to wind others up "pal" ............ and rack up your post count. Naturally like everyone else on this forum I buy CDs or other media just to look at the pretty pictures on the cover. [/quote] You still fail to answer a simple question. I guess you're still in your teens so Ill drop it this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1360676425' post='1974358'] It has become almost impossible to say you don't like The Beatles---people throw proper hairy canary hissy fits if you do (just read the last few pages).I think its because lots of Beatles fans are unable to appreciate that it is entirely possible to accept how influential and important the Beatles were whilst not actually enjoying their artistic output. I like The Beatles (although they do have quite a few turds hidden amongst the gems) but just because something is important and influential doesn't mean you have to actually like it. [/quote] ............ and we're back to being a [b]musicians[/b] forum again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 This is a semantic argument now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Perennial' timestamp='1360676465' post='1974360']I guess you're still in your teens so Ill drop it this time.[/quote] I'll refer you to my previous reply about making ridicluous posts while not having been here long enough to make a worthwhile point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perennial Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1360676425' post='1974358'] It has become almost impossible to say you don't like The Beatles---people throw proper hairy canary hissy fits if you do (just read the last few pages).I think its because lots of Beatles fans are unable to appreciate that it is entirely possible to accept how influential and important the Beatles were whilst not actually enjoying their artistic output. I like The Beatles (although they do have quite a few turds hidden amongst the gems) but just because something is important and influential doesn't mean you have to actually like it. [/quote] That's precisely not the case. Anyone may like whatever they like but you don't just walk in saying the Beatles are rotten tomatoes just because YOU don't like them. The facts point to another reality namely that they were better than you may think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1360676519' post='1974363'] This is a semantic argument now.[/quote] The Beatles were from Israel? Who knew!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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