J + J = MM ?

[apa]

Thanks iiipopes

Yes all these things have been going through my mind. Now you see why a stock shape MM pickup wouldnt do at all! The blades are the simple answer. The big picture is a 5 string fanned fret with a P pickup and twin J's going through a pre. In my simple world I was thinking of wiring th two J's to get that humbucker MM sound and was wondering if the pre made any difference. This would have a big factor since if the pre was a big factor in the sound I would need a passive blend on an MM pre since there are effectivly 2 pickups. If its not I could just go with my favoured pre of a U or J Retro. I was considering bespoke pickups so the spacings would be correct but some fanned frets have perpendicular pickups. No sweet spot then! Looks like you managed to use stock size pickups from your bridge mods. I wont have the problem of mountings since all this will be hidden inside the body. So no casings needed.

Realy nice job on the build btw. I see you went for the fan to start at the nut as apposed to having the 7th perpendicular. That because of the donor neck? Im aiming for the 7th prep myself. How was it getting hold of strings? Im assuming since the E was 34" you could use standard sets?

I should have said all this in the first place shouldnt I!!

A

Edited December 20, 2012 by apa

[iiipopes]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1356033513' post='1906119']I see you went for the fan to start at the nut as apposed to having the 7th perpendicular. That because of the donor neck? Im aiming for the 7th prep myself. How was it getting hold of strings? Im assuming since the E was 34" you could use standard sets. A[/quote]
Thanks. The primary reason for starting with a square nut is my ergonomics and all my old injuries to my elbow, wrist and thumb coming back to haunt me, so the elbow and wrist follow the neck and I do not have to pronate my wrist or duck my elbow under for the upper registers. The secondary reason is for being able to use conventional strings. Currently I play the Fender 9050CL custom light flats in 45-60-80-105.

Even though it is based on a Precision, there are Rickenbacker elements in the scale of the G string, the P position pickup, the narrowed string spacing, and the narrower neck heel, so it has some similarity of feel to my Rickenbacker 4002 (yes, "2," not "1" or "3.")

Edited December 20, 2012 by iiipopes

[Vinny]

[quote name='iiipopes' timestamp='1356022717' post='1905916']
...Rickenbacker humbucker...
[/quote]

Try saying that ten times after a few beers!

[Lfalex v1.1]

Mec twinjazz.
Covered blade polepieces, so no alignment issues. Essentially two j pickups in one housing.

Worked fine in the Warwick fortress masterman basses...

[apa]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1356195883' post='1907861']
Mec twinjazz.
Covered blade polepieces, so no alignment issues. Essentially two j pickups in one housing.

Worked fine in the Warwick fortress masterman basses...
[/quote]

Cool. Added to the options list

A

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1355905497' post='1904132']
I assume you mean you'd be placing the two J pickups right next to each other, like on this bass:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/194434-sold-warwick-streamer-pro-m-german-1998-sold/"]http://basschat.co.u...rman-1998-sold/[/url]
If so, the answer would seem to be "yes".
[/quote]

I debated long and hard before selling that bass, why does no-one want to keep hold of it?

[mcnach]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355913096' post='1904233']
dont forget the pickup placement
[/quote]

that's the most important part.

The Squier Jazz V DeLuxe has the bridge pickup at the MM spot, and... no, it does not sound like a Stingray, but it definitely has some of the vibe there.

[mcnach]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1355935306' post='1904747']
The question still remains do I need an MM Pre to get close to an MM sound? Subthumper seems to suggest so. Anyone else?

A
[/quote]


No.

It helps, but no.

A MM pickup without a preamp already sounds very Stingray.
A Jazz pickup at the MM position... can do a Stingray-passable tone in the mix.
A MM pickup outside the MM position does not sound like a Stingray no matter what you do to it.
My G&L L2000 with a Stingray preamp does not sound at all like a Stingray...
etc

Position is the most important part. You are not going to nail the sound using two J pickups... but if at the right place, it's going to to sound nicely Stingrayish. Use whatever preamp you wish. I'd prefer the John East MMSR, of course

[apa]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1356454808' post='1910325']


No.

It helps, but no.

A MM pickup without a preamp already sounds very Stingray.
A Jazz pickup at the MM position... can do a Stingray-passable tone in the mix.
A MM pickup outside the MM position does not sound like a Stingray no matter what you do to it.
My G&L L2000 with a Stingray preamp does not sound at all like a Stingray...
etc

Position is the most important part. You are not going to nail the sound using two J pickups... but if at the right place, it's going to to sound nicely Stingrayish. Use whatever preamp you wish. I'd prefer the John East MMSR, of course
[/quote]

Cool beans Yep Im not expecting two J's to sound exactly like an MM but something akin to it will do so Ill stick to that. Now its only left to decide whether to use an East MMSR with a passive blend or keep it simple with a U-Retro. Id rather try something different to a Retro though. Ive got two already

Oh and see my reply to subthumper.

A

[nugget]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1356033513' post='1906119']


The big picture is a 5 string fanned fret


[/quote]


I've been looking at making a 5 string fan fret also!!

I hope this makes sense, it does in my head but i cant quite explain it... I've just drawn up fan frets with std pickups rotated in CAD.

IF you say that the position of the jazz pickups are a percentage of the scale length, then apply that percentage to each of the strings on the fan you get where the pole pieces are for each string, you then draw a line through the pole pieces you get the jazz pickups in the 'correct' jazz position This gives you the angle that the pickups should be at (dingwalls angle doesnt calculate out to be 'straight')

For a standard 5 string jazz bridge pickup to have the strings running over the pole pieces the string spacing work out at approx 13mm which might be a bit tight?

If you go with 18mm sting spacing the bridge pickup need to cover approx 92mm between the outer stings and thats more of a 6 string blade type pickup (delano 6 string pickup only works over 95mm so even thats close).

Of course you dont have to have the pickups angled as if they are 'straight' but they may sound different if they aint

Dave

[apa]

[quote name='nugget' timestamp='1356633947' post='1911888']
I've been looking at making a 5 string fan fret also!!

I hope this makes sense, it does in my head but i cant quite explain it... I've just drawn up fan frets with std pickups rotated in CAD.

IF you say that the position of the jazz pickups are a percentage of the scale length, then apply that percentage to each of the strings on the fan you get where the pole pieces are for each string, you then draw a line through the pole pieces you get the jazz pickups in the 'correct' jazz position This gives you the angle that the pickups should be at (dingwalls angle doesnt calculate out to be 'straight')

For a standard 5 string jazz bridge pickup to have the strings running over the pole pieces the string spacing work out at approx 13mm which might be a bit tight?

If you go with 18mm sting spacing the bridge pickup need to cover approx 92mm between the outer stings and thats more of a 6 string blade type pickup (delano 6 string pickup only works over 95mm so even thats close).

Of course you dont have to have the pickups angled as if they are 'straight' but they may sound different if they aint

Dave
[/quote]

Hi Dave

This is the crux of (one of) my dilemas in a nutshell! I understand exactly what your saying. An angled pickup needs wider spacings. Coming back to my MM/JJ debate: If I wanted an MM pickup there is no stock one that has angled poles since they are in pairs. So the J+J would be an option if they were bladed. I do wonder how things work when fanned frets dont have angled pickups! Its like a standard fretted with pickups angled the wrong way! The only way is custom I think. Mine is all still in my head but Im sure there are many small winders who could cut a bobin to suit. Wizard being the obvious one. Interesting you say that Dingwalls dont calculate out at the correct angle. Are they over angled (To emulate the angle you get on some Single coiled set ups) or under angled? I wouldnt go lower than 16mm spacing on any bass myself. My Bitsa 5er is 17mm and thats as close as I like.

Ive also read a few things about the frets themselves. Banjo frets seem to be the prefered size. Also an important detail I realised is that when marking out/calculating the fret positions its under the strings not at the edge of the fretboard.

A

[nugget]

Hi

Wizard wouldnt even make me a standard 5 string P pickup !!!

There is a guy here on BC (sorry forgot who) who got Nordstand to make some custom replacements for his Dingwall. I did think about tapping up Jon Letts as he makes his own. The 2 x std jazz blade type idea would get you very close to a MM and you could get something off the shelf.

If you do go ahead with the build I could draw it up in CAD for you (no charge obviously) to help workout the pickup sizes etc, it's makes light work of laying out the frets as well

Ta
Dave

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1356275589' post='1908643']


I debated long and hard before selling that bass, why does no-one want to keep hold of it?
[/quote]
Streamer Pro M, right?
That's an MEC twin jazz right there. They sound great. But even better in the Fortress Masterman, because of the blend control and the 2x2-band eq - one for each half of the pickup. Sounds crazy, but it certainly works for me.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Lfalex v1.1

[Lfalex v1.1]

IIRC, I'm sure I once saw a bass using two regular jazz pickups with their inner mounting lugs ground off to allow them to be placed directly adjacent to one another. I seem to recall that they'd epoxyed the two halves of the casings together to form one unit. Bizarre, but it would work.

[apa]

[quote name='nugget' timestamp='1356642081' post='1912023']
Hi

[b]Wizard wouldnt even make me a standard 5 string P pickup !!![/b]

There is a guy here on BC (sorry forgot who) who got Nordstand to make some custom replacements for his Dingwall. I did think about tapping up Jon Letts as he makes his own. The 2 x std jazz blade type idea would get you very close to a MM and you could get something off the shelf.

[b]If you do go ahead with the build I could draw it up in CAD for you (no charge obviously) to help workout the pickup sizes etc, it's makes light work of laying out the frets as well[/b]

Ta
Dave
[/quote]

Actually I know the trouble there is at the mo with Wizard so probably wont use Andy.

Thanks for the offer Dave but I work in CAD design for a living myself. AutoCAD / Solidworks / Studiotools / Maya / ProE...... take your pic

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1356649706' post='1912139']
IIRC, I'm sure I once saw a bass using two regular jazz pickups with their inner mounting lugs ground off to allow them to be placed directly adjacent to one another. I seem to recall that they'd epoxyed the two halves of the casings together to form one unit. Bizarre, but it would work.
[/quote]

Twin J pickups are pretty common arent they? I wont have the problem of esthetics. All the pickups will be hidden in the body.

A

[nugget]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1356689508' post='1912355']

Thanks for the offer Dave but I work in CAD design for a living myself. AutoCAD / Solidworks / Studiotools / Maya / ProE...... take your pic


[/quote]

ha ha, I can only just about draw staight lines with autocad lt.......
Best of luck with the build, look forward to seeing the progress

Dave

[Prime_BASS]

In answer to the preamp needed to sound like a MM. No.

I have a Sandberg basic and it sounds like a Stingray. (not exact, but very a like) and that has the pickup placement but has passive mode and a glockenklang preamp. The pickup placement gives the very flat response, full of harmonics, making the strings sound tight and full of bounce and punch.

The preamp on a stingray gives rays their typical 'open' airy top end, bright but not shrill. Due to the treble pot being high at about 7khz.

Tim Commerford fooled me in thinking he was using a Stingray for songs like People of the sun, I think it's a jazz on the recording (could be wrong) but he utilises a preamp with it too.

[apa]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1356813947' post='1913999']
In answer to the preamp needed to sound like a MM. No.

I have a Sandberg basic and it sounds like a Stingray. (not exact, but very a like) and that has the pickup placement but has passive mode and a glockenklang preamp. The pickup placement gives the very flat response, full of harmonics, making the strings sound tight and full of bounce and punch.

The preamp on a stingray gives rays their typical 'open' airy top end, bright but not shrill. Due to the treble pot being high at about 7khz.

Tim Commerford fooled me in thinking he was using a Stingray for songs like People of the sun, I think it's a jazz on the recording (could be wrong) but he utilises a preamp with it too.
[/quote]

Thanks for that Prime BASS. That does seem to be the general concensus. Ill concentrate on the pickups for now and then pick a suitable pre

A