EdwardHimself Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) This has been really bugging me for the last couple of days. My friends have just done some recording in their band and are convinced this is what the singer sounds like naturally. However, to me it sounds like there is definitely some sort of pitch correction going on here. [url="http://www.facebook.com/measureofdisorder/app_2405167945"]http://www.facebook..../app_2405167945[/url] So, what do you reckon? Auto-tuned? Or have I just gone completely mental? I think it is too late to salvage the relationship between me and these people, but really I just need to be put out of my misery of not knowing. Edited August 28, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Good evening, EH... The vocals sound almost completely 'dry' to me; certainly not pitch corrected. He's hitting the notes very well. The whole thing (I listened to most of each of the 3 tracks...) was rather 'under-produced' (no bad thing...), with little treatment anywhere. I was more bothered by the somewhat less-than-tight drumming, but that wasn't the object of your question, so I'll let that lie. Good straight singing, on pitch and articulate. They'll never make it like that..! All imho, naturally... Edited August 27, 2012 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Hmmmm. I dont think he's been pitch shifted, he does have a tendency to slide into notes in a lot of phrases. Which is fine, seems like a perfectly good effort, if thats what you want to sound like. I'd be more concerned about the drum sound, which is rather errr lacking. And the almost total lack of bass (its in there as a bit of grind off the pick, but has no real oomph IMO and is completely drowned by the guitar - sounds a bit "And Justice" in terms of balance). The drum playing definitely seems a bit hit and miss too, which may explain the lacklustre sound, making the drums far more in your face would only make the issues with the playing way more obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1346146929' post='1785701'] Hmmmm. I dont think he's been pitch shifted, he does have a tendency to slide into notes in a lot of phrases. Which is fine, seems like a perfectly good effort, if thats what you want to sound like. I'd be more concerned about the drum sound, which is rather errr lacking. And the almost total lack of bass (its in there as a bit of grind off the pick, but has no real oomph IMO and is completely drowned by the guitar - sounds a bit "And Justice" in terms of balance). The drum playing definitely seems a bit hit and miss too, which may explain the lacklustre sound, making the drums far more in your face would only make the issues with the playing way more obvious. [/quote] Right ok. I suppose I'll have to take your word for it. I thought it had, I must be going deaf or something! It's just I have seen this guy live and he is not anywhere near as in tune as this. Plus they said that they had it all recorded in a few hours. I just can't believe that he managed to get it all as pitched as good as that in that amount of time. Plus I could swear I could hear some kind of artefacts in there, but you might be right in saying it was just the way he was singing it. I don't know. You are entirely right about the mixing though, shocking job. Apparently the instruments were all done live but I don't really think that is an excuse for a supposedly "experienced" studio producer to not make some effort into making it sound at least half decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Well there you go; I've gone completely mad! now to play my drums with a hammer. Oh wait, I did that yesterday. Guess I'll have to find something else to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydentaku Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 He might not have been able to hear himself as clearly as in a studio environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 [quote name='jaydentaku' timestamp='1346147782' post='1785718'] He might not have been able to hear himself as clearly as in a studio environment. [/quote] An interesting hypothesis. Do you think maybe his lack of self-perception led his musical instincts take over into delivering some kind of pitch-perfect performance? Maybe I should tell him to turn the monitors off next time they play at Hollywood and Vine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Its totally valid. I've seen Plux's band a few times live and the singer was pretty shocking at pitching. I tracked him a few weeks ago tihnkg "This is going to take all day" and he nailed it, repeatedly. I was super pleased! When singers aren't trying to belt it out, just to be able to hear themselves (very badly) with all the attendant mush of high volume noise at a gig - blowing their voice in the process by the second song - they can usually do a far better job with pitch. Saw him since at a venue with better monitors and stage volumes and he was bang on.., The fact it was recorded live is irrelevant, that mix sounds like a**e. Edited August 28, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1346150869' post='1785770'] Its totally valid. I've seen Plux's band a few times live and the singer was pretty shocking at pitching. I tracked him a few weeks ago tihnkg "This is going to take all day" and he nailed it, repeatedly. I was super pleased! When singers aren't trying to belt it out, just to be able to hear themselves (very badly) with all the attendant mush of high volume noise at a gig - blowing their voice in the process by the second song - they can usually do a far better job with pitch. Saw him since at a venue with better monitors and stage volumes and he was bang on.., The fact it was recorded live is irrelevant, that mix sounds like a**e. [/quote] I suppose yeah. I must say he has improved a hell of a lot over the years. A lot better than he was 5 or 6 years ago anyway. And yeah, the mix is terrible. I did offer to record them myself, but they wanted a "proper" producer to do it. Then again, what do I know? I can't even tell whether or not it has been pitch corrected, apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I find it hard to believe that the tracks were 'produced' at all..! I wasn't going to comment on more than just the vocals, but if there was a paid (..?) producer involved in the recording/mixing, I for one would like to know who to avoid in the future. I agree about muffling out the drums, to mask the imperfections, and the Amazing Invisible Bass Player, but all in all, it sounds like a half-decent garage recording done on a Friday night, and couldn't have taken very long. They seem young, so not to be thumped too hard, I suppose, but there's a lot of work to be done to get that to be, firstly, played right, and secondly, recorded decently, imho. As for vocal pitch live v recording, it is common to have many more problems staying in tune on stage (less so with good pro's...), for many reasons, so I wouldn't be surprised to experience a very different performance in public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Hopefully I am not breaching the forum's "libel" policy but really, this guy has produced the work for public release and the link is there for you to make up your own mind as to whether you think he is a good producer or not so I don't think it should be an issue. The producers name is [url="http://www.facebook.com/davidelf"]Dave Williamson[/url] and he is from Hull (not to be confused with producers with the same or similar names in other parts of the country.) This was really what led to the falling out, they really took against me criticising him and the sound of the recordings, not just the auto-tune. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I guess if you're in a band that is new to recording, it's probably pretty "cool" to hear yourselves recorded "properly" for the first time but yeah, the production is terrible. Oh well, too late now. They're not going to listen to me (and why should they?) But I kind of feel sorry for them if they actually paid for it. Edited August 28, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1346152295' post='1785796'] I suppose yeah. I must say he has improved a hell of a lot over the years. A lot better than he was 5 or 6 years ago anyway. And yeah, the mix is terrible. I did offer to record them myself, but they wanted a "proper" producer to do it. Then again, what do I know? I can't even tell whether or not it has been pitch corrected, apparently [/quote] Dont worry about that! It still could have been. Modern pitch shifting algorithms are total black magic mate But they tend to fall flat on the breaths, they go very weird trying to autocorrect intakes of breath, leaving horrible artifcats, and the only way around that is to do all the shifting (ie when to start and stop) by hand. Now given the state of the rest of the mix I really dont believe that this chap has spent the time on a per syllable level sorting out the tuning. So I dont think this has been autocorrected (but still I'm listening on an old pair of cans at work and could easily be missing some artifacts). I still think the vocal is the least of their issues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 [quote name='EdwardHimself' timestamp='1346155545' post='1785853'] Hopefully I am not breaching the forum's "libel" policy but really, this guy has produced the work for public release and the link is there for you to make up your own mind as to whether you think he is a good producer or not so I don't think it should be an issue. The producers name is [url="http://www.facebook.com/davidelf"]Dave Williamson[/url] and he is from Hull (not to be confused with producers with the same or similar names in other parts of the country.) This was really what led to the falling out, they really took against me criticising him and the sound of the recordings, not just the auto-tune. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I guess if you're in a band that is new to recording, it's probably pretty "cool" to hear yourselves recorded "properly" for the first time but yeah, the production is terrible. Oh well, too late now. They're not going to listen to me (and why should they?) But I kind of feel sorry for them if they actually paid for it. [/quote] Probalby wasnt worth falling out over, yes they are loving hearing a 'proper' job done on their music now. Just wait until they've played it right next to a bunch of their favourite commercial releases, the doubt will start to creep in, and no doubt this fella will say they need to get it mastered by himself or his mate Trev GoldenEars with the 20k monitors.... The mix is poor, the playing (esp the drums) is ropey, no amount of mastering is going to fix these issues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1346160184' post='1785907'] Dont worry about that! It still could have been. Modern pitch shifting algorithms are total black magic mate But they tend to fall flat on the breaths, they go very weird trying to autocorrect intakes of breath, leaving horrible artifcats, and the only way around that is to do all the shifting (ie when to start and stop) by hand. Now given the state of the rest of the mix I really dont believe that this chap has spent the time on a per syllable level sorting out the tuning. So I dont think this has been autocorrected (but still I'm listening on an old pair of cans at work and could easily be missing some artifacts). I still think the vocal is the least of their issues! [/quote] Yeah, I know what you're saying. I think the breath is the biggest give-away and even then, it's not exactly helped by the heaps of treble and compression added in the mastering stage. Of course I thought I was hearing artefacts caused by using the "quick-mode" on the auto-tune. As you may or may not know already, I was listening to it on my KRK rokit 8 monitors which probably aren't as good as your headphones. [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1346160309' post='1785908'] Probalby wasnt worth falling out over, yes they are loving hearing a 'proper' job done on their music now. Just wait until they've played it right next to a bunch of their favourite commercial releases, the doubt will start to creep in, and no doubt this fella will say they need to get it mastered by himself or his mate Trev GoldenEars with the 20k monitors.... The mix is poor, the playing (esp the drums) is ropey, no amount of mastering is going to fix these issues! [/quote] Well at least they can't blame me for not telling them. Maybe it was a bit trivial but I just think it is a bit ridiculous really. They ask for feedback on their recordings, they get feedback, they block me from posting on the page. What did they expect? Also the drummer has not been in the band for very long and doesn't really have a lot of confidence, but I used his snare drum at a show and it is very well tuned up, so he obviously cares about his drums, he just needs a bit of practice really. Edited August 28, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Yes, well there is the diplomacy thing isnt there, did you post openly in a very public facing way, or did you gove them a private PM? If the former then they are really smarting to have the world told that the realisty is they arent nearly as good as they thought, and that the money they've spent has bought them a bit of a lemon, and they dont wont the truth 'out there'.. If the latter, then they are smarting at getting something honest that disagrees with their world view, its childish, it wont help them improve, but its their reaction. Whenever I offer a critique of a mix to someone (and who am I to critique anyone's effort really) I always remember to load it with caveats about how harsh it may seem. Mainly because I really don't want to upset people. I thne try to give as much positive feedback as possible whilst pointing out things I think could be changed for the better, and things that maybe need to be changed to make the result of a more prfessional quality. Its sometimes very hard to come across as someone trying to help rather than someone just letting off a broadside of 'that in fact sucks'.... Sounds like from their perspective, rightly or wrongly, you let off a broadside of criticism that they dont think is justified. That is probably their loss in this case, since I think that the mix is very poor too. You may just have hit a very raw nerve internally regarding the possibility of the singer being tuned, very difficult to broach that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimskidog Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1346160309' post='1785908'] [snip] his mate Trev GoldenEars with the 20k monitors.... [snip] [/quote] how did I get dragged into this??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 [quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1346353641' post='1788282'] how did I get dragged into this??? [/quote] haaahaaa! Priceless Trev, sorry mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1346235985' post='1786747'] Yes, well there is the diplomacy thing isnt there, did you post openly in a very public facing way, or did you gove them a private PM? If the former then they are really smarting to have the world told that the realisty is they arent nearly as good as they thought, and that the money they've spent has bought them a bit of a lemon, and they dont wont the truth 'out there'.. If the latter, then they are smarting at getting something honest that disagrees with their world view, its childish, it wont help them improve, but its their reaction. Whenever I offer a critique of a mix to someone (and who am I to critique anyone's effort really) I always remember to load it with caveats about how harsh it may seem. Mainly because I really don't want to upset people. I thne try to give as much positive feedback as possible whilst pointing out things I think could be changed for the better, and things that maybe need to be changed to make the result of a more prfessional quality. Its sometimes very hard to come across as someone trying to help rather than someone just letting off a broadside of 'that in fact sucks'.... Sounds like from their perspective, rightly or wrongly, you let off a broadside of criticism that they don't think is justified. That is probably their loss in this case, since I think that the mix is very poor too. You may just have hit a very raw nerve internally regarding the possibility of the singer being tuned, very difficult to broach that one! [/quote] Yes you're right. The annoying thing is that if I hadn't accused the singer of being auto-tuned, I would have had lots of ammo to hit back at them with! Oh well, you live and learn I suppose... [quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1346353641' post='1788282'] how did I get dragged into this??? [/quote] It's your fault for buying such expensive monitors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archetype Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Did the band do the mix? I know a lot of guys who auto tune vocals without telling the band so the singer thinks he's amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 [quote name='Archetype' timestamp='1347190676' post='1797792'] Did the band do the mix? I know a lot of guys who auto tune vocals without telling the band so the singer thinks he's amazing. [/quote] No they didn't, it was the so-called "producer." That was my suspicion as well at first to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archetype Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Yea, Like I said I know plenty of guys that do that - if not much more. I have seen some awful sounding singers live that in the studio when they can hear everything properly suddenly sound good. but never in a case where I've not need some auto tune tweaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 [quote name='Archetype' timestamp='1347192694' post='1797833'] Yea, Like I said I know plenty of guys that do that - if not much more. I have seen some awful sounding singers live that in the studio when they can hear everything properly suddenly sound good. but never in a case where I've not need some auto tune tweaks. [/quote] Well I just don't know what to think any more really. I've pretty much given up on speculating whether this was auto-tuned or not. I suppose we will never know really. They're convinced that he really is just a fantastic singer though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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