Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hey, i need a bit of advice. I've been playing bass now for about 7 years and really starting to feel that my playing doesn't seem to be as good as i want. i'm feeling down hearted about my playing and generally a bit low about my dexterity and over all playing style. I have 4 string basses and 5 string basses and i've always swapped between the two different types regularly but now i'm finally looking into learning something about music i'm at a bit of a cross roads. I play the 5 string more because a lot of what we as a band have written i just can't play on the 4's and even with the 5 string some times i have to drop D it. i've started looking a 2 octavet major scales as a starting point and i've found that on a 4 string it's very different from the 5. That's in standard tuning as i found, so far, that with a drop D tuning the scales are really quite hard to pull off. (the 4 i'm moving up the neck more and it's kind of a 3 note per string shape. where on the 5 string i only really need to move once for the 2 octaves, when in standard tuning) Should i lock my 4 string basses away and concentrate on learning on my main work horse of a bass, the 5 string, rather than flipping between them and just confusing and frustrating myself? i am a terrible learner and i find it hard to retain information about this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I'll bet you are actually a better learner than you think you are. You talk about switching between 4 and 5 strings and drop D tuning. That all had to be learnt and you've done it. There is a question that is asked by some people; How do you get to the Albert Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Unfortunaely there is no easy way round it. The French call it repetition and that's all it takes. Keep practicing the same thing over and over and eventually it sinks in without you knowing it. Don't force it. So I say keep playing both. Find what suits the music you are playing. If that turns out to be fivers then that's what is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Interesting questions.) What bassis your favourite? How much stuff do you play other than EADG? What find with 5string, is that just by practicing "normal" songs in EADG , they can sometimes be played on the higher part of the neck without realising you are using the b string subtlety. I bought a 5string a few years back , and hadn't the confidence to gig with it. This was probably because only a couple of songs were alternate tuning. Some people play only a four, and have a spare for different tuning because they can't get on with a 5. Have you seen a teacher,or thought about doing so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1331470132' post='1573193'] I'll bet you are actually a better learner than you think you are. You talk about switching between 4 and 5 strings and drop D tuning. That all had to be learnt and you've done it. There is a question that is asked by some people; How do you get to the Albert Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Unfortunaely there is no easy way round it. The French call it repetition and that's all it takes. Keep practicing the same thing over and over and eventually it sinks in without you knowing it. Don't force it. So I say keep playing both. Find what suits the music you are playing. If that turns out to be fivers then that's what is needed. [/quote] Thanks BassBus. i guess your right. i'll really try this year to practice and make it regular. I think maybe i'm going through a faze of self criticism... I have some good gear and that does make me feel a little worried at gig's. i guess i think that maybe other bassists or band people may be expecting me to be much more advanced than i am... [quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' timestamp='1331470145' post='1573194'] Interesting questions.) What bassis your favourite? How much stuff do you play other than EADG? What find with 5string, is that just by practicing "normal" songs in EADG , they can sometimes be played on the higher part of the neck without realising you are using the b string subtlety. I bought a 5string a few years back , and hadn't the confidence to gig with it. This was probably because only a couple of songs were alternate tuning. Some people play only a four, and have a spare for different tuning because they can't get on with a 5. Have you seen a teacher,or thought about doing so? [/quote] Well i mainly play in drop D as most of what's written is in that tuning. i play that tuning on the 5 string too because i just can't play those songs if i don't. It does make however scales and some stuff very difficult to play. i love my jazz bass and it's awesome for plying chords, slap and harmonic stuff. But I love the 5 string 's too, the fretless is great and swells lovely and the fretted is my main bass of late. i have not ever seen a teacher but i have been thinking about it since the new year. i've thought that maybe if i'm paying to learn more about bas and music theory that it might go in and stay in there then become useful to me but i'm not sure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1331471186' post='1573214'] Thanks BassBus. i guess your right. i'll really try this year to practice and make it regular. I think maybe i'm going through a faze of self criticism... I have some good gear and that does make me feel a little worried at gig's. i guess i think that maybe other bassists or band people may be expecting me to be much more advanced than i am... [/quote] There's nothing wrong with self-criticism, just means you want to improve what you do. Nowt wrong with that. Just be careful you don't take it too far. Perfectionism is actually quite a negative trait. You spend so much time looking for the negative that you can loose sight of the positive. So you end up having a bad time all the time. We all make mistakes. Allow them to happen. Learn from them and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1331468595' post='1573158'] i've started looking a 2 octavet major scales as a starting point and i've found that on a 4 string it's very different from the 5. That's in standard tuning as i found, so far, that with a drop D tuning the scales are really quite hard to pull off. (the 4 i'm moving up the neck more and it's kind of a 3 note per string shape. where on the 5 string i only really need to move once for the 2 octaves, when in standard tuning) [/quote] How well do you know the fingerboard? I only ask because a two octave scale is no different on a four string than it is on a five string(or six string).I'm guessing that you are approaching the scales more as patterns rather than the actual notes,which for me is where the problem starts. If you know what notes are in what scales and where the notes are on the fingerboard you should be able to play them over the whole instrument on 1,2,3,4 or 5 strings. If you're playing in drop D a lot,the adjustment shouldn't be too difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1331473527' post='1573272'] There's nothing wrong with self-criticism, just means you want to improve what you do. Nowt wrong with that. Just be careful you don't take it too far. Perfectionism is actually quite a negative trait. You spend so much time looking for the negative that you can loose sight of the positive. So you end up having a bad time all the time. We all make mistakes. Allow them to happen. Learn from them and move on. [/quote] that make me feel better about what i'm doing. Thank you sir. [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1331476438' post='1573320'] How well do you know the fingerboard? I only ask because a two octave scale is no different on a four string than it is on a five string(or six string).I'm guessing that you are approaching the scales more as patterns rather than the actual notes,which for me is where the problem starts. If you know what notes are in what scales and where the notes are on the fingerboard you should be able to play them over the whole instrument on 1,2,3,4 or 5 strings. If you're playing in drop D a lot,the adjustment shouldn't be too difficult. [/quote] Arrrh yes well thats probably part of my problem. i know where some of the note are just through having played the instrument for years but no i don't know my fingerboard very well at all. If i sit down and think about it i can, after a few min's, work out what the notes are that i'm playing but right now i only really see the scales as shapes. Hence why i see two different shapes on the two basses. Say on the 4 string i play a 2 octave G major scale. i see the shape and remember that shape. (i use a 3 note per string kind of shape, well thats what i've found/sounds right) On the 5 string, because of the low B, i can play the same 2 octave scale but only move once. To me, at the moment, i see it as a different shape. so i then have 2 shapes to remember for that scale. what i'm finding is thats cool i can deal with it but at the same time i can't see how that is going to help me get better... this may sound very bad to say but i can't find how that shape i'm trying to remember is going to be used in a song/bass line. i guess because i don't know what those notes are i'm playing..... up till now i only really play with the drummer. i follow what he does and jiggle along with him. i ask/look at what the guitars are doing so i can roughly play some root notes and then just bop out the groove from there. I'd love to actually know what the notes are and actually be in key, understand why things work or don't. i'm lost as to where to start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassdriver Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1331471186' post='1573214'] I think maybe i'm going through a faze of self criticism... I have some good gear and that does make me feel a little worried at gig's. i guess i think that maybe other bassists or band people may be expecting me to be much more advanced than i am... [/quote] Try not to compare your playing too much to that of others or judge yourself by their standards or what you imagine their expectations of you are. You don't need to be flash to be good. Better to play two notes exactly how the song needs them rather than 10 that don't really need to be there. Feel for the music is just as important, some would say more so than technical knowledge. Your ears and your heart are part of it just as much as your fingers. If confidence is an issue it'd probably help to have a few lessons, just so you can have someone who knows show you where you're strengths are. That way you'll have something more positive to focus on than where you feel your lacking. Just play as much as you can and allow yourself to make mistakes. That's how you learn. It's good to be critical of your playing but a mistake to use it as an excuse to beat yourself up. 4 strings or 5? Well whichever sounds best for the song you're playing I reckon. It's good to use both equally. I have only played 5s for years now and if I pick up a 4 it just feels weird. If you keep your hand in with both you'll be a more versatile player and when you change between the two you'll have to think a bit more about where the notes are which sounds like it'll help you. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1331481087' post='1573419'] Say on the 4 string i play a 2 octave G major scale. i see the shape and remember that shape. (i use a 3 note per string kind of shape, well thats what i've found/sounds right) On the 5 string, because of the low B, i can play the same 2 octave scale but only move once. this may sound very bad to say but i can't find how that shape i'm trying to remember is going to be used in a song/bass line. i guess because i don't know what those notes are i'm playing..... [/quote] I'm just going to take these two quotes for now. It's possible to play a G major scale on a 4 string with only one position shift-although you do have to use extended fingering. How do scales get used in a bassline? Do you know anything about chord tones and arpeggios? All major diatonic (in key) harmony is basically derived from a major scale....for example in the key of G major,the basic diatonic chords are G,Am,Bm,C,D,Em,F#mb5 . All the notes within each of these chords can all be found within the G major scale. So if you understand how arpeggios work (1,3,5 of each chord),you can begin to move away from the root and play more interesting lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bassdriver' timestamp='1331484460' post='1573501'] Your ears and your heart are part of it just as much as your fingers. If confidence is an issue it'd probably help to have a few lessons, just so you can have someone who knows show you where you're strengths are. That way you'll have something more positive to focus on than where you feel your lacking. Just play as much as you can and allow yourself to make mistakes. That's how you learn. It's good to be critical of your playing but a mistake to use it as an excuse to beat yourself up. :-) [/quote] Awesome! that's what i've always tried to keep in mind. I am very emotionally attached to music and feel it in my heart. i find myself smiling uncontrollable when we play live these days. ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1331485020' post='1573517'] I'm just going to take these two quotes for now. It's possible to play a G major scale on a 4 string with only one position shift-although you do have to use extended fingering. How do scales get used in a bassline? Do you know anything about chord tones and arpeggios? All major diatonic (in key) harmony is basically derived from a major scale....for example in the key of G major,the basic diatonic chords are G,Am,Bm,C,D,Em,F#mb5 . All the notes within each of these chords can all be found within the G major scale. So if you understand how arpeggios work (1,3,5 of each chord),you can begin to move away from the root and play more interesting lines. [/quote] i know nothing of any of that. BUT i do understand. I guess that means that in the past the notes that i've stumbled across or notes i just feel are right must be those notes that allow you to move away from the root? so up to now in my playing i've just been lucky to play anything right i spose...ok right is the wrong word, in key maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassdriver Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1331485686' post='1573533'] Awesome! that's what i've always tried to keep in mind. I am very emotionally attached to music and feel it in my heart. [/quote] :-) Use your ears, play from your heart rather than your brain and you won't go far wrong. For me the truth is you don't 'need to know which notes you're playing to know whether it sounds right or not. If you want to be able to sight read then yes you're going to need to know your way across the fingerboard pretty well. It all depends what you want to achieve from playing. [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1331485686' post='1573533'] i find myself smiling uncontrollable when we play live these days. ^_^ [/quote] I know what you mean. There some notes I play in my originals band that just seem to fit so well, they're not difficult, just right and sound so beautiful. This is why we play, apart from the egoic desire to look cool with a bass strapped on that is :-) If you're trying to work out original bass lines for your bands songs it'll really help to have half decent recordings you can listen to. Hopefully you'll hear in your head what the bass should be doing, what you want it to do. Go and work it out by ear, record it and if something doesn't sound right you can tweak it from there. You might find a lot of what you're trrying to play is more than the song needs. Then you can concentrate on playing the right notes just so rather than worrying about notes that don't need to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bassdriver' timestamp='1331486712' post='1573564'] :-) Use your ears, play from your heart rather than your brain and you won't go far wrong. For me the truth is you don't 'need to know which notes you're playing to know whether it sounds right or not. If you want to be able to sight read then yes you're going to need to know your way across the fingerboard pretty well. [/quote] Use your ears...Yes. But play from the heart and not the brain? Not this argument again? The whole point of learning about scales and chord tones is so you can play what you feel without spending ages searching for the notes you want-you study,which becomes internalised and then it comes out in your playing. It will only affect your playing in a positive way. The notes don't matter as long as it sounds right is often another bogus concept.I've heard so many people play,for example, a b7 over a Maj7 chord or play a minor pentatonic over a major chord and they don't hear that for the majority of times it actually sounds bad...it's just a stock lick that they do. It's not about reading either-why would you not want to learn the fingerboard? Are people really going to be happy waiting around while you stare at the neck while searching for a certain note? I don't see any excuse for not learning the notes on the fingerboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassdriver Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1331487705' post='1573591'] ? I don't see any excuse for not learning the notes on the fingerboard. [/quote] I don't mean to ssay it'd be a bad idea to do so or a waste of time, just that it's not impossible to play well without. Yes a comprehensive knowledge makes you a more accomplished player but as long as you have good enough ears to hear a b7 clashing with a maj7 you can still play a nice bass line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 [quote name='Bassdriver' timestamp='1331488259' post='1573602'] I don't mean to ssay it'd be a bad idea to do so or a waste of time, just that it's not impossible to play well without. Yes a comprehensive knowledge makes you a more accomplished player but as long as you have good enough ears to hear a b7 clashing with a maj7 you can still play a nice bass line. [/quote] My point is that you can either hit the wrong note,wince,then try another note the next time through-or you can hit the right note first time. I know which I'd rather do. Bear in mind I'm referring to doing this on the bandstand, not in the practice room-although it helps there too. There are players who play well without knowing the 'board,but if you are playing,say, an F# on the D string and the band leader asks you to play it an octave higher,will they be happy to wait for you to count the frets until you find it? Learning the fingerboard well doesn't take long either..spend just 15 mins a day studying it and you'll have it down within a short space of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 ok so i guess there's a mixed response to my question so far. I understand all the points that have come up so far and i am kind of stuck in the middle... not in a bad way though. Something said here about right and wrong or should i say in key or not, is that i don't see anything you play as being bad. i'm quite happy to groove on a totally 'wrong note because in my mind at that point of a jam i'm feeling it so much that when i eventually move to the 'right' note it is just incredible and satisfying. One thing i enjoy most about myself and music is i don't ever consider anything to be weird or not right all i am thinking is maybe one way i can help with the self loathing is to try to lean and understand a bit more about the 'science' of music but keep in mind the freedom that we start off with and alot of people seem to loose the more they lean... if that makes any kind of sense... i'm trying to stay positive about this as, because of the way i am, i can sometimes read into things a bit to much and end up never playing again lol. Nah i really appreciate all your comments guys. it really gives me good substance to think on and stuff... last night we had a normal jam and i have to say this post was so in the for-front of my mind i couldn't play very well. That said today i've felt quite positive about my playing.... madness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Hi, I am doing something similar myself. Have a new teacher and he has me learning & practising arpeggios and scales/modes in 3 positions up and down the fretboard. The strategy is that I will eventually instinctively know which notes fit over any given chord wherever my hands are and so when I want to create something I will hear it in my head and my hands will play it, taking away the "is that gonna be right" moment. It also reinforces the note learning Spending 15-20 minutes a day (every day) on this has moved me forward hugely after only a couple of weeks. If you have a chance to create some backing tracks over a few chords for you to play over that helps put notes in context. Major chord, the four is ugly, the six is sweet. Apologies if telling you stuff you know Have a look at Scott Devine's vid on arpeggios http://scottsbasslessons.com/technique/practice-bass-arpeggios.html Hope this helps Eggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The more you play the more you will know what works best for you There's a seemingly endless amount of changes you can make to your playing and your equipment which will help you to be the player you were meant to be I love playing my good old 4 banger. it's where it all began, and those 4 strings are always my reference no matter what I'm playing on... But nowadays I feel most at home on a 6. I always get dead confused when i play a 5 though for some strange reason! There are some players who can play just as fluently on a skinny necked ibanez guitar, as they can on the tree trunk neck of a 5 string P bass! Then there are the guys who can make you weep playing intricate multi part pieces on a 7 string bass, but when you hand them anything other than their custom made 5k prized possesion they just shrug their shoulders. Then there are those guys who ramble on about a load of crap while completely forgetting what point they were trying to make... Oh well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly1nl0tus Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Hi Have you had any thoughts on the 4 vs 5 string? I'm having the same problem myself. I've played using my fingers for years on a 4, then a 5 string. But recently I have been using a pick which I only seem to like doing on the 4 string. Problem is, I love my 5 string (Ibanez EDB555) but not my 4 string (battered old Tanglewood Rebel). I'd love to hear if you have made a decision and why you made it. A possible solution is you have lighter gauge strings is to tune the 5 string to DEADG. I tried it on mine and it was OK but my strings are a really heavy gauge and the B string sounded a bit crappy. I'm not sure if this is a recommended solution by anyone else, but each to their own I think. Edited March 21, 2012 by fly1nl0tus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 Hey, sorry for the late reply. I've had alot of gig's over the last few days and just haven't been near a pc to get on here! We'll it's funny cus i was fiddling around on the jazz again and am now playing the 4 more than ever. the 5 is sat in it's case again lol. I'm still torn. but i think i'm going to keep swapping between them both and i don't seem to struggle with the change i just have to remember to move around a bit if the normal thing i'd play is too low for the 4. As for learning a bit more i think that i may look for a teacher or maybe someone that i can go see every month or so just for ideas, some theory, and maybe a bit of guidance for my playing. I really don't want to end up as one of 'those' bass players that seem really technically proficient on their own but lack any kind of emotion or imagination when they play but i do want to be a little more confident when another muso throws me a riff or awesome oddity that baffles my brain as to where to start... if that makes sense. ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1332791625' post='1593243'] I really don't want to end up as one of 'those' bass players that seem really technically proficient on their own but lack any kind of emotion or imagination when they play but i do want to be a little more confident when another muso throws me a riff or awesome oddity that baffles my brain as to where to start... if that makes sense. ^_^ [/quote] Studying wont take away any emotion you put into your playing. What it will do is to allow you to understand what you are currently doing and even give you a greater scope for new ideas. The whole idea of studying and becoming technically proficient is so that you are able to apply ideas both musically and technically without having to worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo_Grimmer Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1332797572' post='1593398'] Studying wont take away any emotion you put into your playing. What it will do is to allow you to understand what you are currently doing and even give you a greater scope for new ideas. The whole idea of studying and becoming technically proficient is so that you are able to apply ideas both musically and technically without having to worry about it. [/quote] thanks dude. yeah i understand now. i guess you can see my concern but also being where you are you can see how this benefits too. I really appreciate your feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegreenman Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1332797572' post='1593398'] Studying wont take away any emotion you put into your playing. What it will do is to allow you to understand what you are currently doing and even give you a greater scope for new ideas. The whole idea of studying and becoming technically proficient is so that you are able to apply ideas both musically and technically without having to worry about it. [/quote] Nail > Head [quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' timestamp='1332791625' post='1593243']I've had alot of gig's over the last few days[/quote] So it would seem that whatever it is that you are currently doing is in demand? I'd be viewing that in a rather positive light My 2p. Knowledge and familiarity of the fret(or less)board is a good thing, as is a basic understanding of simple harmony. I've met lots of musicians with the "it'll steal my soul if I learn scales" misconception, and I'm not suggesting you have that. But I think you'll find that a little studying will help you understand what you're already doing, and arm you with the tools to probably become a much more confident and successful "you". *edit* Which is kinda what Doddy already said, so I'll shuffle off now... Edited March 29, 2012 by littlegreenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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