PA Help - quick question

[Walker]

OK, this may be a really stupid question so apologies if it is.

Our 5 piece (2 x acoustic guitars (both sing), keys (also sings), drums and me on bass) has a Yamaha Stagepas 500. It's plenty loud enough for our gigs. Thing is, we have run out of inputs.

Is it possible, for example, to run the 3 vox into a small seperate mixer, then into one of the PA's XLR's? Could we do the same with the guitars?

Thanks very much!

Chris

[attachment=93775:PA.jpg]

[bremen]

Yes, you could use submixers, but into the line inputs rather than the mic XLR ins.

[Phil Starr]

You can run submixes in though you will need to match them, they might need to go to a jack or a phono input (line input) if the output from the submixer isn't a balanced (XLR) output.

You might like to also think of looking at a mixer which takes all of your inputs and just feed the stereo output to the Stagepas which will act as an amp. The Yamahas have a great sound if you can put up with the relatively low sound output.

[icastle]

Yep.
We always used to run out of inputs if we needed to mic up the drums so we just added a little 8 channel rack mounted mixer into the PA rack and feed that to a single line in on the main mixer.

[JTUK]

Personally, I wouldn't sub mix the vocals above all else. They would be the last thing, IMV and sub mixing would be a stop-gap.

I'd look at bigger mixers

[Walker]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1322219284' post='1448031']
Personally, I wouldn't sub mix the vocals above all else. They would be the last thing, IMV and sub mixing would be a stop-gap.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice, another mixer isn't an option at the moment I'm afraid. Can i ask why you wouldn't sub mix the vocals above all else? What about the acoustic guitars then? They all DI into the PA using the XLR inputs.

[Walker]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1322155924' post='1447379']
You might like to also think of looking at a mixer which takes all of your inputs and just feed the stereo output to the Stagepas which will act as an amp. The Yamahas have a great sound if you can put up with the relatively low sound output.
[/quote]

We gigged last night and I talked to the guys about this and we love this idea. The Yam' has an amazing sound and suits our music and typical venue size perfectly. So if we bought a non powered Peavey or Mackie desk with enough inputs, we could just mix on this and send to the Yam? That simple?

Thanks again for the advice.

[JTUK]

If you sub-mix, you loose individual control of that signal...and therefore you only have collective control on the sub group. Some might allow EQ on that group but some might just allow just gain.

With vocals you want as much indivual control as poss..so I would keep them seperate.

In this compromise mixing, I would select other groups to combine and sub mix before Vox ..which are pretty much the most important thing
in a band

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1322395605' post='1450201']
If you sub-mix, you loose individual control of that signal...and therefore you only have collective control on the sub group. Some might allow EQ on that group but some might just allow just gain.
[/quote]

Not necessarily an issue if you're sub-mixing with another desk that replicates those controls though - it just mimics a grouped desk module which on a lot of gigs you might do anyway. If I'm using something like a GL3300 with group options and mixing a larger band, I'd often group vox as a stereo pair for convenience.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

All the added complexity of a sub-mixer isn't worth the trouble, Sell the mixer and get a Yammy EMX212s, which is a far better mixer as well.

[icastle]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1322402204' post='1450338']
All the added complexity of a sub-mixer isn't worth the trouble, Sell the mixer and get a Yammy EMX212s, which is a far better mixer as well.
[/quote]

What complexity?
All we do is feed the drum mics into the little mixer, balance everything on that and set up EQ - we then feed that signal into the main desk on a single channel that we just leave set flat.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1322403470' post='1450370']
What complexity?
All we do is feed the drum mics into the little mixer, balance everything on that and set up EQ - we then feed that signal into the main desk on a single channel that we just leave set flat.
[/quote]You now have two pieces of kit rather than one, and the need to interconnect the two and connect both to the mains AC. And you have to buy the auxiliary mixer, so it's not like this happens with no cost. I'd put the money towards a better mixer instead, especially considering how much better the 212s is, with better channel EQ, two graphic EQs and effects, and how little the 212s costs.

[Walker]

Thanks very much, lots of options here. So if I went for a powered mixer, could I still use the passive speakers I have?

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/proaudio/pa_systems/stagepas_500/?mode=series#tab=feature

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Walker' timestamp='1322413710' post='1450545']
So if I went for a powered mixer, could I still use the passive speakers I have?

[url="http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/proaudio/pa_systems/stagepas_500/?mode=series#tab=feature"]http://uk.yamaha.com...ies#tab=feature[/url]
[/quote]Yes.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1322403470' post='1450370']
What complexity?
All we do is feed the drum mics into the little mixer, balance everything on that and set up EQ - we then feed that signal into the main desk on a single channel that we just leave set flat.
[/quote]

I concur, it's not really much extra bother carrying a multiway socket and two cables.
But a better mixer is, well, better, so it really depends on the relative costs and the likelihood of further expansion in future. I don't like powered mixers because of this problem of effectively tying you into buying a new amp if you decide to upgrade in future, but for portability they are hard to beat. I do find an extra small-format mixer is a pretty useful item to have in any case, so the relatively small cost of a new mixer is not a total waste if you upgrade later.

[Walker]

Thanks Bill, assuming I would need to look at the max output of any mixer and not exeed the 250 wpc?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Walker' timestamp='1322417476' post='1450622']
Thanks Bill, assuming I would need to look at the max output of any mixer and not exeed the 250 wpc?
[/quote]No, because said speakers probably can't handle more than 100w before distorting anyway. If they distort you turn it down, which I imagine is what you do currently. Having extra power on tap is never a bad thing, used judiciously. With a speaker rated 250w you're pretty safe running an amp rated anywhere between 125w and 500w. The same applies to electric bass amps and cabs.

[icastle]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1322405125' post='1450396']
You now have two pieces of kit rather than one, and the need to interconnect the two and connect both to the mains AC.
[/quote]
Did you [b]really[/b] just write that?
Anyone who's incapable of plugging something into the mains is certainly working in the wrong industry and the 'interconnect' is no harder than it is running a DI out from an amp back to a mixing desk.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1322405125' post='1450396']
And you have to buy the auxiliary mixer, so it's not like this happens with no cost. I'd put the money towards a better mixer instead, especially considering how much better the 212s is, with better channel EQ, two graphic EQs and effects, and how little the 212s costs.
[/quote]

Yes that's always going to be the best bet, but in the real world compromises have to be made in order to get things working now when just going out and buying an entire new desk 'right now' isn't always a financial possibility.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1322425408' post='1450773']
Did you [b]really[/b] just write that?
Anyone who's incapable of plugging something into the mains is certainly working in the wrong industry and the 'interconnect' is no harder than it is running a DI out from an amp back to a mixing desk.

[/quote]When one uses interconnected pieces of gear independently powered the potential for ground loop noise rises exponentially with the number of devices employed. And if all your kit is in one box you don't have to contend with issues of bad or disconnected cables. If the OP was really comfortable with a complicated system I doubt he'd be as pleased as he is with what he currently has.

[Monckyman]

I`m going to have to back BF on this.
Yes it`s easy to connect and power another mixer,as easy as powering an ative wedge or connecting a D.I etc.
But, if your desk isn`t doing everything you need it to, and has the potential to do things you aren`t doing, like submixes and direct outs for recording or monitoring, then you may as well consider a total upgrade,starting with a mixer that has more than 2 band EQ and a couple of pre fade monitor outs for monitoring.
I know you [i]can[/i] get by without some things, but really, with equipment as cheap as it is, you have to ask yourself why,when you alone can spend £800 on one 12" bass cab, would the [i]whole band[/i] not spend at least that on the mixer that``s tonally affecting EVERYTHING?
My opinion, buy a decent desk and plan ahead.You won`t lose money on it.

[Walker]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1322497251' post='1451563']
My opinion, buy a decent desk and plan ahead.You won`t lose money on it.
[/quote]

Yes, this does look like the route we are going to go down now, just a bit of persauding to be done Although we are going to pick up a small 2nd mixer to submix while we raise the £££'s for a new Yam powered desk.

Thanks everyone for your input (boom boom).

Chris

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Walker' timestamp='1322553115' post='1452358']
Yes, this does look like the route we are going to go down now, just a bit of persauding to be done Although we are going to pick up a small 2nd mixer to submix while we raise the £££'s for a new Yam powered desk.

Thanks everyone for your input (boom boom).

Chris
[/quote]

If you're after something cheap and 4 mic inputs is enough, this looks a good price [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-MG10-2-Mixer-Excellent-Condition-/250941065971?pt=UK_Mixers&hash=item3a6d40caf3"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3a6d40caf3[/url]
I have one and I'd say it's decent.

Edited November 29, 2011 by LawrenceH

[thumperbob 2002]

I really dont think your pa is powerful enough to take the whole band- I have found that gear is really cheap anyway- especially on ebay- loads of bargains to be had.

I personally would be looking at a better mixer- I have just picked up a 24 channel desk with everything anyone could need ( fair enough it is a behringer but it was £160 - more or less new and sounds really good )- such as two seperate effects- two further auxilliaries- 4 way subgrouping- parametric eq.

Add to this a couple of Mackie srm450s and you are there- you now have a 1k rig for something like £600- including your gear- easy to set up and to pack down and also to transport. A bit of creativity with regards to set up and you can play most places with a bit of headroom.

[Walker]

[b]LawrenceH[/b] - cheers, that is a great price, have kept a watch on that one if we decide to go down the submix route!

[b]Thumperbob[/b] - really interesting stuff. Thank you.

Could I DI into this setup (not use my cab for reinforcement) or would PA need some sort of sub too? We each have a powered 100w Yamaha monitor so wouldnt need by cab for backline. Something less to lug around

We are not a loud band - mainly acoustic, keys and drum and me on electric bass.

[thumperbob 2002]

[quote name='Walker' timestamp='1322568770' post='1452689']
[b]LawrenceH[/b] - cheers, that is a great price, have kept a watch on that one if we decide to go down the submix route!

[b]Thumperbob[/b] - really interesting stuff. Thank you.

Could I DI into this setup (not use my cab for reinforcement) or would PA need some sort of sub too? We each have a powered 100w Yamaha monitor so wouldnt need by cab for backline. Something less to lug around

We are not a loud band - mainly acoustic, keys and drum and me on electric bass.
[/quote]

Are you using lots of vocal harmonies?- if not use the monitors you have at the FOH for a bit more pa punch and use , say, one monitor for the band. Unless you are playing really quietly you will need backline. I have used a submixer in the past and this is the lowest cost option- pick up one form ebay for £50 easy.

Sometimes I think it is not what gear you have but the way in which you use it.