Boodang

The main difference I've found in price is how much abuse the cables are able to withstand.

I've got a very pretty fender heritage cable, not expensive, great for home use as it's not stiff and bulky but wouldn't last 5 mins on the road. 

Cables for stage use I get from Designacable, middle price range and built to last.

A couple of clips from my newly acquired Fwonkbeta. The full review includes some comparisons with the Supa Funk and Funk Machine (these two I posted a review of earlier) which I also bought recently.

Initial impressions of the purple funk generator... it's got balls I'll give it that!

Clip 1; frequency at 1 o'clock, depth at 2 o'clock, sensitivity at 3 o'clock.

Clip 2; frequency at 4 o'clock, depth at 3 o'clock, sensitivity at 2 o'clock. 

Clip 3; by way of comparison, the classic funk setting on the Solid Gold FX supa funk.

221_Fwonkbeta purple funk generator .mp3

223_Fwonkbeta purple funk 2.mp3

50_SGFX classic funk.mp3

1 minute ago, Boodang said:

Well, an example of this concept is patents and drug industry.. they rip the *rse out it while they can and then when the patent has ended people start making it for a reasonable profit and the price comes down dramatically. There's no deception involved (admittedly there's an element of recouping development costs) but the emphasis is on reasonable when it comes to profit.

If it's not reasonable then there's an element of taking 

1 hour ago, bassman7755 said:

Its not ripping anyone off unless there is deception involved. I've moaned in the past about Tech 21s frankly ludicrous prices for their pedals especially the signature series but ... they arn't ripping people off. Noone has duty at the end of the day to sell something for some pre conceived idea of "whats its worth", its down to the prospective buyer to insist on value for money as they see it. Alembics eye watering prices are a down to those willing to pay the money as are Tech 21s pedals.

 

PS when I got my Sei made, Martin reckoned he could charge way more for his basses but he didn't want to do that as it would making what he thought would be an unreasonable profit and thus ripping people off. In other words charging what he thought it was worth not what he could get away... ie. an honourable guy.

1 hour ago, bassman7755 said:

Its not ripping anyone off unless there is deception involved. I've moaned in the past about Tech 21s frankly ludicrous prices for their pedals especially the signature series but ... they arn't ripping people off. Noone has duty at the end of the day to sell something for some pre conceived idea of "whats its worth", its down to the prospective buyer to insist on value for money as they see it. Alembics eye watering prices are a down to those willing to pay the money as are Tech 21s pedals.

Well, an example of this concept is patents and drug industry.. they rip the *rse out it while they can and then when the patent has ended people start making it for a reasonable profit and the price comes down dramatically. There's no deception involved (admittedly there's an element of recouping development costs) but the emphasis is on reasonable when it comes to profit.

If it's not reasonable then there's an element of taking the p*ss.

12 minutes ago, Muzz said:

If it'll bring things into more perspective, have a glance at the Alembic Price List...but make sure you're sitting down first... 😀

When I had my first Sei bass made I had many a conversation with Martin (owner/builder and someone who doesn't over charge) about charging what something is worth and charging what you can get away with. Alembic feels like the later.

And whilst some people say 'well that's what people will pay', for me there is an element of ripping people off about the later just because they have a unique product. 

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

Honestly, f this whiny thread.  Waaaaaaaah, why doesn't every shop cater to my every whim?  Every shop should have a decent selection of statistically rare basses.  It's so unfair!  They're doing shopkeeping wrong.

 

They're not, you're doing shopping wrong.

 

 

I think how we are shopping wrong is by going into a shop, play everything, ask advice, then walk out and buy it on the internet because it's 5 quid cheaper.

We had a great drum shop locally which folded for exactly this reason.

Who remembers the Bass Centre in Wapping? Crammed full of just bass stuff. Bought quite a few basses from them. At least we have Bass Direct which seems to have taken on where Bass Centre left off.

Brilliant! Was just thinking the other day how most descriptions are quite boring. At least this gets your attention in more ways than one. Clown vomit... could be a good name for a band!

Bass Direct have quite a few basses!

1 hour ago, Rich said:

As a Wal owner, I have not even the slightest objection to their value going up and up. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

Why do you find it 'objectionable' anyway? You obviously don't want another Wal so why should it particularly bother you? Do you object to the value of vintage Fenders etc too? Genuinely curious to know.

 

Presumably you haven't seen the price of bolt on neck, solid wood Foderas recently..?  

Don't get me started on the price of Foderas!! 

As far as Wal's are concerned, and I don't know why it irkes me so much(!), I just can't see why they are prohibitively expensive. Bolt on neck, solid body, excellent hardware and quality materials but really, 4.5k starting price new.. where's the money being spent?!! 

I had a Sei bass made to spec, ebony & wenge, ABM hardware, thru neck, compound radius neck profile, umpteen coats of lacquer, leds for side dots... 2k (including a full flight case) and the craftsmanship is second to none. Where is the extra 2.5k going on the Wal? The easier bolt on neck construction?! 

It shouldn't bother me, if people want to pay then fair enough, but I just think it's taking the p*ss slightly. 

As for the price of classic Fenders..  well again, if you want to pay, fair enough but it might be an investment rather than good value for money. 

1 hour ago, drTStingray said:

That is a very subjective view.
 

However I certainly can tell the difference between instruments of the same make and type but different fretboard necks and bodies, for instance and definitely between low end and higher end models of the same instrument type, as a player.
 

Anyone else’s view is frankly irrelevant to the player.

 

I would be surprised if anyone couldn’t tell the difference between say the sound of a Precision bass, a Stingray and an Alembic. 
 

I do worry that there’s a certain level of sniping at other people’s choices somehow being wrong, irrelevant or less relevant in threads like this. Surely, so long as the musician is happy with their choice then it is likely they will get joy from performing and will be closer to achieving their playing ability than if they were playing something that they were not happy with - regardless of how much they paid for an instrument to achieve that.
 

I’m happy to pay extra, for example, for a figured maple neck or a specific colour because they please me, aesthetically. Others may not like them - it’s all a matter of personal choice - and there are lots of them with an instrument. 
 

Functionality is by no means the only driver for purchases.  
 

By comparison, the upright I currently covet, and madly thinking of saving up for, is the Nick Lloyd Double Bass as used by Ben Ezra. At 45k it is considered a bargain in the upright world.

By contrast the electric bass I'm currently considering is a Vigier passion, which at 3k is considered top endish in the bass guitar world. 

24 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Indeed they are but how much real value is added sound wise? And can the average listener tell the difference. I think, as with electric instruments, many can - but the same is true of acoustic guitars. The high level makes such as Martin and Taylor generally produce instruments with exquisite tone - but are cheaper instruments that different? Can the average listener tell the difference? 
 

There’s a world of difference in how different types and manufacturing of electric instruments are carried out, the cost and volume of the labour (and in which economy that’s based), the cost of materials and the perceived market value all have a bearing on it. 

I agree, it's just we're lucky in the solid body world where the difference between cheap and expensive is very compressed compared to the acoustic world.

1 minute ago, drTStingray said:

If we applied the same sort of approach to electric instruments as orchestral players do, why is it then that orchestral players may pay £10s of k for their instruments or even hire one which has even more value, when for anyone who has children who learn instruments will know student instruments can be had for the outlay of £100s rather than £1000s + (thankfully)?

 

It would be interesting to hear the sound of an entire symphony orchestra playing student instruments - I think sound and it’s appreciation is a very subjective thing and works also at the margins where, to some people, an imperceptible difference is a massive chasm to others. When I hear people say, of bass sounds, it’ll not be detectable in the mix, well that’s certainly true in some mixes (especially some pop music of the last decade or more) but ask it to do a more fundamental job in the music performed (rather than background plodding and mush)  and place it higher in the mix, I’m afraid I completely disagree. That’s where your sound is crucial. It’s also fundamentally important to the player that they are happy with their instrument and the sound it makes - regardless of how much it cost. 
 

 

When it comes to orchestral instruments we're now looking at the difference between an acoustic instrument and a solid body. I play upright bass, there's a site which sells 'affordable' vintage DBs, they start at 40k! 

Acoustic instruments are a completely different kettle of fish to solid body. Look into the process of making an orchestral instrument in the violin family and you can see where the money goes, look into the process of cutting up some solid wood and bolting it together and it's difficult to see why it's expensive. 

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

I have played some inexpensive basses. They didn't come up to the mark. I have played a couple of really pricey ones. They didn't do for me any better than my mid range ones.

 

For me so long as it is stable and plays well it's all good. I have had a few Fenders, to wind up with a Fender that I got relatively cheaply. It's a bit heavy so I may look for something lighter one day.

 

What I haven't seen here is any of the new miracle CNC pretty competent house brand stuff made cheap(ish). I wonder if the hardware will let it down.

 

As my Grandfather said.... 'Ye pays ye money and ye takes ye choice'.

 

My opinion of fancy wooded expensive basses is 'fine for you, not for me'.

Well, my Squier VM jazz must have been CNC'd and it was cheap. There hardware let it down a bit but not to a point where it didn't do a decent job and I'm sure it would have lasted. I've changed pups, electronics, bridge and nut and that's elevated it to an awesome bass. Partly because the 'ebanol' fretless fingerboard is so well done and there aren't many fretless basses with that kind of finish. A case in point where a cheap bass has come up with something where alternatives are expensive. Other than the VM other resin board basses are things like Pedulla which have a zero on the end of the price... if you can get one!

55 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Methinks this means not what you think it means. It's entirely logical not to stock something that they only sell one every five years. Unless you mean they must be telling lies about 5 string sales?

Also, I could be wrong and just being prejudice, but the first thing that springs to mind is an old shop selling violins and pianos going 'oh, these new fangled electric things will never take on, and who is Hendrix anyway, sounds like a washing machine to me'!

34 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Methinks this means not what you think it means. It's entirely logical not to stock something that they only sell one every five years. Unless you mean they must be telling lies about 5 string sales?

Just seems a bit weird that a 5 string wouldn't sell... maybe it doesn't sell because they don't stock it! I can't believe in this day and age a five is not a popular choice, unless of course you're out of touch with your buying public. 

As for fretless, just disappointing. As a fretless player it's always a bone if contention that there's never a good selection, both in a shop and from manufacturers. 

40 minutes ago, TimR said:

There's definitely a law of diminishing returns. It also depends on your level of experience.

 

You'll be able to tell the difference between a beginner bass and an intermediate bass, when you are at an intermediate level, and the next level up and so on. Can you financially justify paying for that difference, its all down to the individual. 

 

I stopped noticing any difference after £1600, but couldn't justify gigging a bass that cost £1600, so £400 did for me.

 

The machineheads were rubbish and the pots have died. New machineheads were £50. Pots I changed myself for pennies. I also had issues with screws coming out of the strap buttons. But matchsticks and wood glue sorted that.

 

Rough edges on the frets also needed a bit of attention. 

 

 

If you get an expensive bass, show it no quarter! Once over the shock of the first scratch you'll use it for what it was meant... playing. Don't deny the audience the awesome tone of your prize bass!

Completely unrelated but relevant nonetheless... I lived in a place where mains generators were critical. The engineer suggested that they would last longer if we used them less... I suggested that if we didn't use them at all they would never wear out!

5 string niche... interesting! And vaguely preposterous.

Had a similar thing with fretless, but to be honest it's not unusual. Went in to a shop a few years ago and asked about the Squier VM fretless jazz only to be told not in stock as fretless doesn't sell and would be hanging on the wall for years.

As a fretless player that's vaguely depressing and quite preposterous!

Twelve thousand, three hundred and forty five pounds... a bargain!!! 

I own the worse bass in the world..  literally. A 70s Jedson that actually couldn't be made any cheaper without falling apart. For a laugh I put an EMG MM pickup on and it sounds awesome..... plays awful though! 

What I've learnt from this, well... pickups are an important part of the sound and craftsmanship is an important part of the playability of the instrument. 

CNC machines certainly make craftsmanship easier to achieve at lower costs, it's just the more special you want it the more the cost.

I've got a custom Sei, not cheap, and a Squier Jazz, cheap. One doesn't play or sound better than the other but obviously with the Sei it's made to my custom requirements and that's going to cost. And the Sei's attention to detail is way beyond the Squier but that doesn't make it sound better, it's just nice to have.

I think what I object to is something like the Wal bass that's currently up for sale at £6500!! There's no way a bolt on neck, solid wood bass is worth this (don't get me wrong,  they're great basses, I've owned a few, but they're not actually worth this kind of money). 

If I went to a luthier to have a bass made I don't think it would be possible to make it cost that amount no matter what spec I ordered.

As for the £400 theoretical limit, well, my Squier now has custom pups, huge improvement, custom electronics, and a new bridge and nut! Diminishing returns of investment but does sound better than stock (sounds great actually) and way less than a Wal.

All my basses are passive and other than a pickup selector switch and series/parallel switch where appropriate, they are wired straight to the output jack, no volume, no tone controls (P bass and MM go straight to jack, nothing in between).

Outside of pickup selection and series/parallel, all tone shaping is done with outboard as it's more flexible.

TC Electronic Spectracomp. Tri band with toneprints that have been setup by someone who knows what they are doing. I found it gave me a puncher sound on the Nathan East print and now it's always on.

Cheap to buy and lots of fun trying the different toneprints. 

Whilst deciding which pedal to purchase I seem to have ended up owning both! Not a problem though as they are both keepers. 

The Seamoon has a more specialist remit but if you like it, and I do, there's no substitute. The SGFX is more what you would expect from a filter pedal with some classic funk settings which has found a permanent spot on my pedal board.

Seamoon Funk Machine;

This basically has two sounds, the classic Brecker Brothers 'sponge' envelope filter and a 'sub-dub' deep filter tone. 

The Funk Machine is a 'down' sweep only filter. The 'sponge' setting is very funky with that pronounced down sweep 'talk- box' sound and an almost pop, vowel like opening to the filter. So much so that if you slap a note the pop will almost take your speakers out! Great for finger style and more extreme than any other filter, but there is a blend control so you can get the right mix.

The sub-dub setting is with the depth control off, letting the filter act almost as an eq control to emphasise a part of the bass frequencies. At it's extreme the emphasis is so low that it gave me a headache! But at less extreme settings it really gave a punch to my bass sound. Blended with the original signal it really shines. This was the surprise setting and I'm using this as my straight tone as it adds depth, punch and clarity.

I thought this pedal would be for specialist use but the sub sounds make it far more versatile.

There are a couple of internal trim pots you have to set to get the sensitivity of the pedal right for your bass, but once done getting the right sound is easy. The build quality is top notch and this has to be the quietest pedal I own in terms of noise.

SGFX Supa Funk; 

Forward and reverse sweeps, and some classic funk sounds. At first you think the sounds are good but you want them to go further, but when I recorded the bass through the pedal I realised on listening back that they were about right and any more would be too much (judge for yourself on the clips I've posted).

The pedal doesn't have a blend control but does have a 'color' knob which adds a second low pass filter to bolster the bass frequencies of the original signal and this I really like. 

The 'classic funk' setting is a great forward sweep filter sound and having the color control means you can easily beef it up.

The reverse sweep 'talky-box' sound I wasn't so keen on at first until I recorded with it and realised how well it fitted in the mix, especially with the fretless. 

Talking of which this pedal is very responsive to playing dynamics and fretless playing. You really feel as if you can be very expressive with the way you play and how it responds.

No internal trim pots on this pedal and I know some people have mentioned clipping issues with hot active outputs but with my passive jazz I've had zero issues (going straight into the pedal caused no clipping). Also, I use all my pedals with an EHX parallel mixer so I can control the send and return levels, if you do have a hot output on your bass this is a good solution and means you won't be put off using what is a great sounding pedal. As with the Seamoon the build quality is excellent and has a great old school feel to it as it's quite chunky. Not as quiet as the Funk Machine but nothing to worry about even in the studio. Overall this pedal really lives up to it's name of supa funk.

The combination of both pedals feels like a funky ball of teats from outer space! And they are now both permanently on my board. More versatile than I thought they'd be, the Seamoon for it's sub punch and the SGFX for the reverse talky, and when you put them in funk mode they really make you want to walk like a chicken! As it says in one of the manuals, but applies to both, prepare yourself for the path to funk enlightenment. 

And to top it off the paint jobs on both do look great. I've posted some clips on another thread if you want to have a listen... for out and out funk, and maximum value for money, I'm particularly in love with using both pedals in parallel for total funkulation!

What I've done with my last 2 basses is to buy Squiers then replace the pups, electronics, bridge and nut. It comes in cheaper than a fully blown Fender but I have exactly the hardware I want.