TimR

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392417169' post='2368672'] Where did I say I 'knew' it was steel? I just suggested steel for the basis of the discussion with TimR just to make some rough approximations to see if some sense can be made of the whole thing. [/quote] Really you don't need to make sense of it. Today we replaced a fused spur at work that had caught fire with a 13amp fuse in it. That was due to a faulty electric thyristor on a heater. Everything else was in order. The fuse will only ever blow if enough current flows for long enough. A pat will open the plug and check the size and condition of the fuse and hopefully spot any charring or discolouration early.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392415852' post='2368645'] Interesting suggestion. What sort of massive current do you estimate would be required to cause an M8 steel bolt to become red hot? [/quote] Well an M6 would fit a 6mm fuse best. Let's say a 3kW fire chucks out say 3kW of heat. That's enough to boil a litre of water in about 3mins. When I've looked at elements on a fire they're usually glowing red hot. On a three bar fire that's about 4 amps per element. Let's say the fuse at the DB is a 16amp, that would quite happily run for a while at 25amps. So let's say 6kW through the bolt and the fire system combined. The cable would be melting through the sheath and the plastic of the plug probably on fire.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392395045' post='2368209'] When did I claim to be an expert - I said I find it hard to believe, but at least I explained my reasoning. I can only go on the information you provided and "electric fire" is singular last time I checked and would not draw more than 13A would it? If the actual circumstances were different to what you described then all sorts of things are possible, but I'm not clairvoyant either. [/quote] The problem is many people find it hard to believe until they've seen it happen. You don't have to be clairvoyant to realise that the elements on a fire can fail to a lower resistance that is high enough to draw a massive current. You just need to understand how the element is constructed and ohms law.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392384873' post='2367996'] True, but we're only talking about a length of about 20mm and probably a cross-sectional area of about 10x that of the copper supplying the current and maybe about the same as the actual pins on the plug. Maybe if it was a rusty bolt with a poor electrical connection, but even then . . . .? Anyway, an electric fire will only pull a max of about 13A . . . Maybe the guy had half a dozen of them plugged in? [/quote] The story goes basically the same every time. Electrical fault. Fuse blows. Replace fuse. Circuit ok for a few days and then fuse blows again. Numpty changes fuse and the process repeats. Eventually numpty gets bored or runs out of fuses and can't see any obvious problem so replaces with 6mm bolt. Then house catches fire and numpty dies. Darwin is satisfied and the humans move up the evolutionary ladder another rung.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392296698' post='2366888'] Anyone who thinks a 13A fuse instead of a bolt is going to save them from a nasty shock is, er, in for a nasty shock. I also find it hard to believe that a metal bolt could be glowing red hot while the consumer unit fuse had not blown or even the house wiring cabling to the socket had not burned through first. But these sort of anecdotal stories abound. [/quote] Depends what the metal bolt is made of. If its resistance is high enough it will act as a heater while the current is kept fairly low. A 30amp fuse in the main circuit could easily pass 60amps for several minutes without blowing. According to wikipedia Carbon steel has 10x the resistance of copper.

Burnout? Three bands is a struggle. I did two bands for a very long time. The problem I had was by comparing the two bands subconsciously I started to see problems with the first band, that probably weren't there. Although since leaving the first band, and subsequently the second band folding, my latest band now has me wondering why I stayed in the first two for so long. Anyway, it's all a learning curve and sometimes a dip, keep moving and playing with new musicians and you'll keep learning. I'm a great believer in moving on when things become stale for you, particularly when performing music, because you can't fake it forever.

[quote name='lonestar' timestamp='1391978617' post='2363265'] Calm down it's only satire ! It is in fact from a humorous book by an American writer ( music journo?)which I was given for Christmas a few years ago and was called the Rock Bible or something. I cant believe that anyone ever intended these to be taken seriously although judging by the vitriolic response of some of the humourless miserable gits on here and facebook the irony got lost somewhere mid Atlantic. It made me smile anyway. edit:http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Rock-Bible-Scriptures-Bands/dp/1594742693 [/quote] Unless they're being just as ironic. I suppose if you were to take it seriously, at least if your band confirms to all those old tired rock band cliches, be aware that they're tired cliches and revel in the fact. For god sake don't think you're being edgy unless you've taken that cliche to new levels like Mr Venom.

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1391895453' post='2362488'] ... Have a heart, it's like telling the bass player he mustn't play a Precision. [/quote] That's rule 5iv

[quote name='seashell' timestamp='1391800645' post='2361532'] Well I thought it was funny. Totally agree with number 9. And I would never take my top off at a gig. No matter how many blokes in the audience called for it [/quote] I went to a gig like that. I had to leave in the break, the band sounded awful

14. Keyboard player. Three sounds are all you need, piano, strings and Hammond. You don't need to sit, you're not even carrying your instrument. Throw away that music stand, we know you can sight read but this is rock, learn the three chords. Put that left hand in your pocket, we have a bass player.

And read that thinking of me with a gentle smile on my face and a pint in my hand.

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1391777578' post='2361159'] ... Now, in saying that, I'm pretty sure that it's not your intention to present in such a manner, ... [/quote] No it's not cheers. It just winds me up when people just repeat what they've read in the papers or some urban legend without thinking for themselves. People aren't stupid but what we're fond of doing is just repeating stuff without thinking whether it's right and if it goes against what we would like then it's doom and gloom or a conspiracy. My Facebook feed is full of it, the papers are full of it, my mates repeat it down the pub, people harp on about it here, my colleagues go on about it at work. I really am not surprised Fly and Dad have left the rat race and given up (obviously from the other standpoint) but I think if people just stopped to think for a second how things actually are, there'd be a lot more happiness.

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1391776939' post='2361149'] Dad and flyfisher, it strikes me that some people, when faced with the apparently abhorrent if not terrifying notion that not all peoples on Earth agree with them, get their knickers in a twist. [/quote] It's not a slight disagreement, it's the assertion that we're all heading into a doomed blind alley. Which is plainly nonsense.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1391775429' post='2361129'] ...but why this virulent exageration all of a sudden..? I don't recognise your descriptionabove from the posts in this thread. It's been stated many times that qualifications are indeed valued; it has simply been mooted that they are not the only and definitive way of establishing competence. Is that so terrible an assertion..? [/quote] Ok. I think I've got threads confused, both this thread and the PAT thread seem to have run into a parrellel corner (if such a thing exists). Someone posted a video of a boiling frog. I was under the impression they thought the whole world was doomed because everyone was paralysed over bits of paper and H&S.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1391774172' post='2361106'] I can't get over the carnage caused in the 90s by all those petrol stations exploding because people used their mobile phones on the forecourt. It was bedlam. I am all for risk management but sometimes.... [/quote] I'm sure that was because a couple of people in the states caught fire when answering their phones while fuelling. Obviously it's pretty difficult to work out exactly why and the phone seems to be the obvious thing and easiest thing to avoid doing until investigations are conclusive that phones are ok.

Not really a personal insult. Just two character traits of people who believe they're better than everyone else and don't need a bit of paper to show it.

It's a children's story. Frogs and people don't behave like that in real life. Of course the doom and gloom merchants like you to think this is how the world actually works and that they're somehow enlightened and the only ones that can see the 'danger'. Arrogance and pomposity.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1391710572' post='2360530'] Fixed..? My own replies would be...[list=1] [*]To avoid having the death of a frog on their conscience..? [*]To keep the water in the pan..? [/list] Could be wrong... [/quote] No. It's an experiment. Several people have carried it out using different rates of heat and different types of pan. In all cases the frog gets agitated and tries to escape when the temperature reaches the critical point. So 1. Use a stunt frog in your 'demonstration' because the stunt frog won't show agitation at the high temperature. 2. Use steep sides so that when you initially heat the water the frog can't jump out. Dad, I thought your motto was always question everything?

My degree is in electrical and electronic engineering. It taught me to question things I'm told and not follow blindly. I understand why people should be tested and proved competent by another person. This prompts me to ask two further questions about the boiling frog experiment: 1. Why did they use a stunt frog? 2. Why do they use a container with steep sides?

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391650000' post='2359848'] And there's my point. There will always be total dicks and the only way to totally protect everyone is to gradually introduce more and more regulations and restrictions, which is what is happening and as each new raft of regulations is introduced it clears the way to look for more risks, which of course abound, and so it goes on. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/people-getting-dumber-human-intelligence-victoria-era_n_3293846.html or the more amusing version: ... [/quote] Or maybe as the population increases and the materials (like lithium ion batteries) we use and the processes we carry out become more complex then so do the risks. Maybe the real solution is to train everybody in the world up to the highest safety standards that we can. I'm looking forward to picking up my Nuclear Power Station Handbook and also my one day course learning all about how to safely operate an oil rig. I've already ordered my book on 'fracking in your own back garden' from amazon just in case.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391653437' post='2359855'] ... At least the Engineering Council was enlightened enough to let me call myself a Chartered Engineer on the basis of my proven experience, even in the absence of all those bits of paper, so that was handy when people who didn't have a clue wanted to understand what I could do. Of course, I'm still not deemed to be competent enough to check a mains lead, so I'd have to pay someone who has likely never even heard of Ohms law but has done a one day course and can flourish their 'certificate of competence' with pride. I was never really sure whether to laugh or cry, so I just bailed out of all the madness as soon as I could. [/quote] Still missing the point. The chartered engineer 'piece of paper' is something that shows you have reached a certain standard, however you got there. It saves people having to ask you to prove yourself over and over again and people having to asses you individually on various criteria everytime they want to employ you. They just say they're looking for a chartered engineer. Same with a driving test. Imagine trying to employ a bunch of people to drive your fleet of vans. How do you assess hundreds of applicants and narrow them down to 20, if they all say they can drive but none of them have a licence and none of them have a 10year pile of insurance 'bits of paper' to prove their competency. As I say it's all about scale. We're operating on a European (even global) scale nowadays, where any one of several thousand million people could turn up on your doorstep looking for work. Not just one of a few thousand from your nearest town.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391636547' post='2359698'] ... In my own lifetime, people have become deemed to be 'incompetent' at wiring a mains plug, driving a motorcycle without a CBT course, towing a trailer after passing their driving test, re-wiring their house, installing a wood burning stove, erect scaffolding, use a chainsaw and nowadays test their appliances . . . and I'm sure there are loads of other examples. ... [/quote] Again you're talking daily mail style nonsense. For a start you can buy a mains plug in Maplins and fit it yourself. Absolutely no question. I've used a chainsaw, I'm not aware of any legal requirement to have a chainsaw licence. However, lots of people have been killed doing other things on that list because they've made their own flawed assumption on their own competence and what's worse is other people have died. I only hope that you're not electrocuted when you unplug someone else's dodgy mains plug, or die in a house fire at your friends house because they rewired their house with 0.75mm2 because it was cheaper. But then that would be your own fault. Wouldn't it?

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1391635683' post='2359677'] OT, so apologies, but the word 'obtuse' just sprang into my mind. Can't think why..! Sorry, as you were... [/quote] The point I'm making is that we don't live in 1940 where only one or two people in each street own a car. There's millions of cars on the road. You can't be asking people to be proving their competency every 10minutes. For a start everyone would be crying big brother when the police keep stopping them. The other is that people are (like it or not) very driven by money. They'll say they can do things if it means they can earn money. It's already been pointed out that you don't put out a chemical fire with water. How do you know this? Someone has told you or you've read it. How do I know you know this? I ask you at your induction, are you trained to use a fire extinguisher. If you haven't been then I'll ask you to avoid using them because we have people who are, and there is a likelihood that even with the best intentions you'll make things worse. Now we're back to the millions bit. There have been millions of events logged and examined that show this happens, it's not happened just once or twice and no one is trying to spoil anyone's fun or trying to nanny anyone. It's the way things work. If you've ever been in a serious incident and had to endure the picking over of events all this would all become very clear and you wouldn't question why it's done.

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1391632732' post='2359601'] One thing I never say ever is never say never...ever. If you did say never say never ever you would limit yourself by saying never...ever. Why limit your options.... [/quote] As I say we're human beings. We're not computers with hard coded morals. Say whatever you want and revaluate as you gain life experience. It's not a weakness, it shows that you are able to develop as a person. Flea has made an admirable stand up to the Super Bowl he's managed to stick to his principles. Something has happened that has given him reason to evaluate his position and he's qualified that in his satement.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391633287' post='2359616'] Well, I'd point to my 35 years of accident-free driving for a start . . . [/quote] And how would you prove that?