ebozzz

Respectfully, I know a lot more gigging bassists that own one of than the type of end user you have described. You and others keep saying that Bugera is deliberately lying about their rating. If that's truly the case, prove them wrong! Enough with the assumption of guilt. It's just as exhausting......

The web page does not clearly state that the figures are RMS. Therefore, how would someone know that those were in the "90%" simply by looking there? And, I wasn't complaining. It was just an example of how manufacturers are all over the place. At least one person in this thread made a big deal about Bugera not being clear on their site. It's not like RMS is the end all & be all for amp ratings anyway.....

I know they're RMS but I wouldn't have clearly known that from the web page. The manual is much more informative though. I personally take all marketing with a grain of salt. I consider it, do my own research and then make a decision on whether the product is something that might fit my needs. If I'm extremely doubtful in any way, I make a purchase using a vendor that allows me ample time to test the product as well as the ability to easily return the item if it's not for me. I was unsure about the Veyrons before buying. Having a 45 day return period and being able to get discounted price made it less of risk. I'm glad that I took a chance....

Let me clarify that I'm all for a standardized rating system with regards to amp specifications. It has to be a system that makes sense and that provides useful insight. Hanging onto RMS when that form of rating probably isn't the best indicator does not make much sense at all to me. It's time for something new.....

If I were to only consider the following link, I'd say that Mesa Boogie is "cynically aware of the state of the market" also..... http://mesaboogie.com/amplifiers/bass/subway-series/subway-d800-plus/index.html

If it's not, why are so many of you hung up on that type of rating? They did expressly indicate that it was 2000 watts peak. In the manual....

I actually had to scroll through the manual several times and when I didn't find a specifications page, the only clear possibility to me was that it might mention something with the section on the speaker outputs. I've seen that before with a different manufacturer.......

Is RMS, which is based on a continuous signal, the best representation of bass amp performance? Honest question... You only assume that they play on users thinking that the values are RMS...

I can answer that. The M6 doesn't appear to be in production any longer so there's no information on their site about it. The best that I could find in the manual is the following quoted portion. For their Subway amps they just state 800 Watts @ 4 or 2 Ohms (400 @ 8). The manual does have RMS values. 070398-m6Carbine_140313.pdf

I understand your point but I don't agree that it's as serious a thing as you make it. Maybe you're preaching to the wrong choir.

That's great! Good luck with that. Now, be prepared to do the same with other companies who don't present information in a way that you deem appropriate. Trust me, there's a lots of other products out there with descriptions that may be even more vague than Bugera's....

Al, then why don't you and your contingent of RMS followers in this thread tell that spiel to Bugera? I mean crying about it here isn't likely have much of an impact. It's not a BIG deal to me because the information is easy to find and readily available. Again, you just seem to feel that it should have been presented in a manner that YOU approve of! I mean, when I questioned the ratings years ago, it took me less than 2 minutes to locate an answer. Why is it so hard for you to accept that they may not be deceptive just because they don't do things YOUR way?

Al you feel that Bugera is misleading simply because they don't list the amp specs in the RMS values that YOU prefer to see. I was never mislead. When I found out about the head years ago I saw 2000 watts on the site that you linked then thought to myself, "Is that Peak or RMS"? When I couldn't find the answer on that page, my next stop was the manual where I found my answer. While there I also took the time to read about other features of the amp. Simple and not misleading at all to me. Just marketing that maybe could have been done differently but often is not by lots of companies regarding a variety of things. I'll let you get back to your Mesa now....

I ALWAYS check the manuals of amps that I'm considering. Not because I feel they might be lying but it's more of an effort to simply confirm the information. Even if the specs check all of the boxes that most would like to see, the performance of the amp is still the most important factor. I didn't buy the Veyron because they said it was 2000 watts and I didn't purchase my other two amps because the specs were 800 watts RMS @ 4 ohms.

If Bugera clearly states that it's 2000 watts peak in the manual and doesn't mention any RMS values in any of their documentation, then that confusion is on the retailers. I was never confused....

It's not irrelevant but I do agree that Bugera should police their dealers better. List the power rating correctly? Is 2000 watts PEAK incorrect?

I agree!

Show me where any Bugera print shows RMS ratings please.....

Al, Bugera is not the retailers. They're also not required to list the ratings of their products in a manner that YOU feel they should. If they choose not to use YOUR preferred method, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are lying or that they have some nefarious reason for doing so! What you and others are doing is jumping to the conclusion that it's not real with no proof. Now you're criticizing the adjectives that they use to describe the amp! Their owner's manual clearly states that it's 2000 watts peak......

Am I arguing? My point is that you and others seem to keep saying "It's not 2000 watts" but have nothing to show as proof that it's not. The company states that it's 2000 watts PEAK. If you have evidence that it's not, please provide it. Anything regarding RMS that was discussed in this thread has nothing to do with that since the company doesn't rate their amps with RMS.

How would he know it's not 2000 watts "PEAK"? I've only got three amps currently, Quilter Bass Block, Ashdown Rootmaster 800 EVO and my Veyron M. The Ashdown and the Quilter are rated at 800 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. My Veyron M has a different character but it is comparable to the other two regarding performance in my opinion. All that being said, I don't have a clue what the watts are. Bugera says 2000 watts peak so that's what I use. Whatever it is, it's a nice amp...

I've never tried either of the Trickfish amps but I know of a few people that own one them. They seem to love them. I'm not trying to bash that manufacturer by any means. My point is that what Bugera has done using only Peak values is not unique to Bugera. If there's no standard for amp specifications, then companies will provide data however they feel is most appropriate for there needs. I really didn't think much about the claimed wattage of the Veyrons when I made my purchase. An acquaintance told me that it was a nice amp, I got what I felt was an acceptable deal from a vendor with an excellent return policy and made the decision to give it a try. It's worked out well for me. My approach would have been the same with an amp that had what many would consider to be respectable amp ratings. When put to the test, it would still have to perform at a high level!

Yes, Trickfish is really low end.....

By the way, my Veyron performs better than any 500 watts Class D amp that I've ever owned. Had mine for WELL over 3 years with no issues.....

Yes, only the "low-rent end" is guilty of that practice..... https://www.trickfishamps.com/amplifiers/bullhead-1k/