Bridgehouse

8 minutes ago, TimR said:

But it's not tab is it? It's just pictures of a fretboard. 

 

Tab is bars with the strings on. The Cage Song is 120 bars odd of rests. Depending on what tempo you play it at. 

Definitely not 120 bars of rest:

43 minutes ago, ubit said:

 

 

Heres one for the pedantic ones Dave

 

 

I see this is the Ames Trapezoid version of the tab.

You can tell because it's the version that sails past people and goes right through them - seemingly impossible at the time, but logical once you get your head around it.

I recommend cutting it out, attaching to very thin card, and then suspending on string so it can be rotated.

40 minutes ago, Boodang said:

Brilliant! This thread is like having ring side seats at a boxing match!!

 

My twopennies worth; it's not how you get there or how quick you are at learning, but the end result that counts... how good does it sound, and not just the bass player. The audience doesn't care whether or not you learnt it quickly so long as it's good.

I also wouldn't be condescending to any other musician just because they aren't as good as I think I am.

Completely on point and a great response.

The OP asked a perfectly valid question - a covers band with a mix of songs, some of which they like, others they don't. Is there value in learning the songs they don't like?

People join bands for all sorts of reasons: Money, experience, they like playing with other musicians, it's an opportunity to learn etc. etc. You pick the reasons that apply and make a decision on that basis. Learning any new song of any sort will add to your experience and will further you musically - even if just a very small amount. 

The discussion in this thread should have been about this. 

However, it's mostly consisted of a discussion about the fact that the "most" or "vast majority" of songs can be learned (whatever that means) with one listen through. The implication is that it doesn't matter too much because you should be able to pick up this "most" or "vast majority" of songs with little effort. 

Nobody on this forum knows the intricate history of any other members playing. We don't know how each of us think musically, where we are stronger or weaker. I've played with musicians of all sorts of different abilities, and some can nail a song on their chosen instrument after one play through, and others can't. I've played with musicians who can pick up songs quickly but are just not good at playing in a band setting. Others who have to work hard to learn songs but are rock solid and reliable in a band. 

The end result is indeed everything - it is different for each of us. There is no one easy answer.

Why are people upset on here? This is a forum for Bass Players to discuss Bass Playing. Simple as that. And by discussion, it involves actually being able to get your head around the fact that each member will be in a different place both technically, in terms of talent, in their experience, and in their approach. If every thread on ability, practise, or anything had experienced players simply saying "gït gud" then the discussion would be worthless. 

To the OP - weigh up the pros and cons and yes, practising songs you don't like will make you a better musician one way or another. How much time that takes and how many run throughs you have to do to get there is irrelevant at best, and condescending at worst. 

The interesting twist to the uni-girlfriend-instant-copy-player story was she was utterly incapable of writing any sort of original tune. 

2 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

If the "go-er" bit relates to her ability to listen to any piece of music on any instrument and instantly play a fully arranged piano rendition of said music, then yeah - she was a steam train. 

It was actually bloody annoying. 

"I wrote this cool riff for our next song" 

*plinks out vague tune on [random instrument] slowly, and a bit haphazardly*

"Oh, you mean this?"

*Plays fully accompanied version of said tune with every embellishment known to humankind*

"Yeah. That."

*watches manhood wither in front of own eyes*

9 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

Gig Goer: "The phrasing on the solo wasn't the same as the recording"

Somewhat drunken flute/whistle/mandolin/mandola/octave mandolin/harmonica/melodeon/english concertina/djembe player:

3 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

There's an answer to people like that.

 

String 'em up. It's the only language they understand.

One particular gig - I believe it was the Cromer Folk Festival on the Pier, after such a gig and such a resultant exchange with a slightly older chap with a knitted sweater came after a crab supper and three pints of Fully Rigged Ship or some such other local ale, and my response, IIRC, was a rather large belch in his face.

1 minute ago, skankdelvar said:

Anyway, yeah, if you can't learn a song in one pass there's something wrong with you. Acquired motor skills, willpower, posture, tin ear, inner monologue, could be one of a hundred things.

 

Some solutions: have lessons / sack off tab and learn to read music / wear loose trousers.

Or have a natural talent for music like a girlfriend I had at uni. We rather misguidedly decided to form a band together. As a rakish, unkempt and mostly drunken student my own view of my musical talent was, eh, overinflated. Ok, I was classically trained and performed in semi-professional choirs for 10 years, but that didn't translate to bashing a guitar and attempting the latest hit from James or Blur. 

On our first *cough* album, we had an argument about the keys part - she claimed I wasn't being specific enough for her as to how it should sound. I rather sarcastically said maybe she could make it sound like Rick Wakeman and stop p***ing about. When we got to the keys break she played pretty much the whole of Catherine of Aragon note for note. 

It didn't end well. 

2 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

Would you believe I've had real life, post-gig conversations like that?

 

Well, I have. Drummers get the same sort of thing except it's along the lines of 'Bonham definitely does four on the kick coming out of the fill' but most drummers are saps and just stand there and take it, not me, no siree. 

I'm pretty sure a lot of us have. 

In fact, I had a five year penury in a folk outfit playing a combined set of instruments that made a one man band look pathetic. 

We didn't even do covers - it was original stuff. I put some pretty complex flute and whistle lines on a whole bunch of songs which, to be honest, were mostly improvised at recording, and thus nigh on impossible to play live without mixing it up a bit - especially after a few pints of local ale. However, countless times some geezer or other would pop over after the gig and remark that my "phrasing on the solo in blah blah wasn't the same as the recording, and had I consciously decided to disrupt the flow of the melodic interchange with the guitar and violin?"

Just now, tauzero said:

 

They realised it was a fretless straight away? Took my band a year.

When you drag that Shuker out it's difficult to confuse it with anything else.. 

It turned out that the Singer was the previous Bass player, and the rest of the band had told him he wasn't cutting the mustard on bass, but his vocals were good - so insisted he stopped playing bass and got a new one in so he could concentrate on his singing. 

It was enough of an emerging train wreck to make me bail before a note was played. But to be fair that was probably a combination of the guitarist wheeling in a full Marshall Stack and a pedalboard the size of a dinner table and the keys player poking his head round the door and asking if someone could give him a hand with his two lesley cabinets.. 

3 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

Horses for courses,YMMV, one man's roof is another man's floor, etc.

 

Me, I'll practice just enough to do a sub-standard job that nobody notices. Anyone who comes up afterwards and says that I didn't play the bass line like it is on the record I tell them 'Well, f__k off home and listen to it there, then'.

Oh so that was you was it?

I went home, checked, and Alan Longmuir definitely played Ab on the end of the 2nd line of the verse on Bye Bye Baby

Just now, peteb said:

 

Lee Sklar play gigs with his friends in local bars when he's not on the road with big acts. Probably the same sort of gigs that you and I do! 

 

We have had a few sign up to Basschat, but they don't tend to stick around (although Guy Pratt & Neil Murray occasionally post). 

 

I shall rephrase for your benefit.

And those guys aren't going to be 

a) in your average covers band playing in the Dog and Duck exclusively, excepting those who are doing so for the fun of it when they aren't on the road with big name acts

b) asking for support and advice on an Bass Forum because they don't have professional experience, and aren't professional musicians who have joined up for a bit then run away because fora are often littered with threads like this

Just now, peteb said:

 

That's great, you are trying to improve as a musician. The difference between someone like me, who's quite experienced and not a bad player, and the top session guys is mainly about their ears (rather than just technique, etc). I like to think that I've got a pretty good ear, but I had a lesson with a guy who plays one live with a world famous band and has done loads of session work and it's a different world. He hears nuances on the first listen that it would take me weeks to work out, if I ever did (and I'm better than most on these types of things). 

 

We are all trying to play at a higher level, which takes work and requires experience. But some guys are already there and they can do things first time that we would take ages to get. 

And those guys aren't going to be 

a) in your average covers band playing in the Dog and Duck

b) asking for support and advice on an Bass Forum

Just now, skankdelvar said:

 

Yeah, well if you want to obsess about girly swot stuff like 'subtlety'. Real men just hammer it out, collect the money and give the landlady a seeing to on the way out the door.

 

I bet you that half the pop hits you know, the session bass player was sat there playing along and thinking 'So, dinner tonight. Burger? Pizza? Something healthy? No, f__k it, I'll have a burger'.

Session bass player? SESSION BASS PLAYER?

You come back here, still late, still no tie, still a messy jacket, still reeking of brandy, and now with a dubious stain on your trouser leg, and give me all this session bass player claptrap?

But seriously..

Basslines can make or break songs. They very often do. Yeah - even on "pop songs" where the session bass player has been picking his lottery numbers in his head and wondering if it will be chips tonight (they hope it's chips.. it's chips) - that's why they are session players. Day in, day out, pretty much second nature to get those bass lines down - if on the mix the bass doesn't do the job spot on, then they won't be getting much more work. 

Most of the covers I hear in pubs and clubs aren't just manufactured pop. It's a heady mix of 90's shoe gazing, britpop, Foos, Muse, and even a bit of Radiohead in those posh trendy wine bars. That's proper bass players in a band, none of your too-good-for-their-own-good session players. 

It's not obsessing anyway. It's just a desire to do a decent job when performing in public. Spending a bit of time and effort to get something nailed, and well practised. 

Any gigging cover band musician will know that the practise and machine-like recall of a song isn't "so the band is tight" - it's so they can all carry on seamlessly when massively distracted by Tracey from Accounts who having had a few too many, slips up and crashes into the speaker left of stage, falls over and shows the whole pub her M&S knickers, all followed by her mates from HR laughing and pointing at her. Or Steve who stumbles up onto the stage and starts a vice like grip around the singers neck and insists his rendition of "If You Tolerate This" is much better. 

1 minute ago, peteb said:

 

That my friend, depends on how good you are! That's one of the big differences between the not bad bass player you hear in a pub on a Saturday night and the really good pro...  

 

Well, I'm certainly no pro - but I do like to make the effort to get as close as I can, call it amateur pride if you like - pushing yourself to try to cover off those bases is a great way to improve. 

If I didn't improve, learn more, push myself a bit, then I'd quickly start to wonder why I was playing. 

2 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

That isn't going to happen, just as it is unlikely that you will be able to play many Beatles songs after one listen. However, there are loads of great songs that you definitely can! 

But that wasn't my point. 

I'm sure there are loads of songs that you can play the bass notes to after one listen - but to get the rhythm, subtlety, note placement and feel for the bassline for any given song requires far more than one listen through. It needs more than one play though let alone one listen through

9 minutes ago, ezbass said:

And then there’s the actual performance of the song. Yes, it might be a well worn, even clichéd

chord sequence,  but that doesn’t take into consideration note placement or dynamics, for example. There was/is an SBL video of Michael League playing the same 3 or 4 note riff over and over, but it starts on different 8th notes, giving it a totally different feel. Then there’s altered chords (the pointing out of which is much beloved by Mr Beato) where the bass doesn’t necessarily follow the root progression, but it isn’t always obvious that it is different.

 

We’ve gone a fair bit OT and I think it needed doing, so to drag the thread back kicking and screaming to its origin… playing cover songs you don’t like is almost an occupational hazard for those who play covers. However, one shouldn’t dismiss these tunes, or just knock out something passable. If time allows, have a good listen and give it your best, especially if playing for an audience (they might not necessarily be paying you, but they’re giving you their time, even if they might be inebriated/not care about the complexities of the song you’re playing, or lack thereof), you might just learn something and if you don’t, it’s just good, musical discipline. Finally, if you have any say in the song choice and absolutely hate something in particular, for whatever reason, see if the band wouldn’t mind dropping it, you can only ask.

 

I'm not much of an ABBA fan. Some stuff was alright I guess. 

I make those comments from an "in passing" point of view. 

However, when you actually listen to the songs with a view to playing them, you realise just how complex and utterly genius they are musically. The bassline to Dancing Queen, the metal pins in the hammers on the piano to create the unique sound. The innovative (for the time) production to achieve the sound and separation it has.. 

In fact, I dare anyone to do a good job of playing the bassline to any ABBA song after one listen....

7 minutes ago, ezbass said:

Ah, whilst I was typing, my esteemed colleague above appears to have made much the same point. He obviously can type faster than I can.

Mine has got more drivel in it tho...

Just now, Jus Lukin said:

 

Motor torpedo my arse!

I'm a bit busy right now, but if you come back later...

12 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 

One thing that grieves me is how many modern pop songs have the same chord progression all the way through, chorus, verse, the same, just adding and subtracting instruments, changing the vocal melody. 

 

Seriously, though, it's not really possible to properly 'learn' a song in one pass and I kind of the suggestion that the ability to do so is some sort of prerequisite for being in a covers band. Mind you, anyone who can't play My Boy Lollipop after one hearing should really take up stamp collecting instead.

There's a significant difference between the complexity of a songs chord structure, it's rhythm, and what makes it unique/memorable - even from a Bass point of view.

There are songs with complex bass lines which are rhythmically straight forward, some with simple bass lines in verses and choruses but complex bridges or solos, some with simple bass lines that are made unique by complex fills or runs in places, and then there are many songs that rely on an accurate and very well timed bass rhythm. 

For me (and I'm a mere landlubber when it comes to some of the experts on here) bass is a subtle but complex mix of notes, rhythms, timing, fills, runs, and note placement. 

Adam Clayton - oft maligned, oft derided - (and liking the song or not is irrelevant) - With or Without You is a perfect example of a simple bass line that is executed with such precision that it carries the song and gives it most of it's uniqueness. Where he places notes, when he chooses to slide between notes, the driving force of the rhythmic playing.

Colin Greenwood (for it is he) - Fake Plastic Trees. I learned the notes to it in one listen. And that was about 10% of the work required to make it sound authentic. Another masterclass in Bass note placement. Once again, a song that is made by the bassline - without it, it would fall. Harmonic perfection, rhythmic excellence, subtle, well placed and executed beautifully. 

Again, for me,  bass playing is about that heady combination of note, rhythm, subtlety and emphasis, and where you place your notes. 

I've written a few bass lines I'm really proud of. I've even recorded them and felt a reasonable satisfaction with my playing. However, I've also played some of them live and on occasion felt horrified by how bad they sounded when one of those elements listed above wasn't right. 

The actual notes are just the beginning of the bass player's story.

Just now, bassman7755 said:

 

+1.  If I take the trouble to go and see a band I expect them to made at least some effort to learn the songs properly, I'm fine with a reinterpretation, not fine with someone obviously busking it having never sat down and learned it. 

My point exactly. It’s also disrespectful of the venue who are potentially paying for you to perform. 
 

3 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

Acksherly, I think @TimR is more or less correct in his assertion. Most vanilla covers are pretty bog-standard; the changes are predictable to the extent you'll be sat there listening and you think 'I bet they change up a key' and five seconds later they do. You scribble it all down as you go, tidy your notes into a folder and off to rehearsal, there to iron out the group arrangement and sprinkle some fairy-dust on the choons.

 

An ability to work out the skeleton of a song in one pass in no way reflects on my limited musical talents. It's just that a significant percentage of each generation of pop songs is written to a formula of the day and it's getting more formulaic as time goes on.

 

For the last while everything's been about I, IV, V and VI in various permutations and if the K-Pop Wave takes off (as well it might) you can expect to hear I, V, VI, IV even more often than you do now.

 

His Eminence Mr Rick Beato on cliche chord progressions:

 

 

You stroll into a perfectly sensible thread late, no tie, shoes a mess, scruffy jacket, reeking of brandy and dare to derail it with Rick Beato??

RICK BEATO??

Disgraceful.

2 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Absolutely brilliant ........... love it 😂

Wish i had thought of that line.....i'm so jealous of your proficiency.

Dave

Thought of it? It’s bloody true!

I wrote a series of lines and recorded them for a singer songwriter for a Spotify release. 

A few weeks later he decided to gig them at an album launch. Asked me to play bass live. I listened to my bass lines before the rehearsal - couldn’t remember a single one of them all the way through!!

12 minutes ago, Raymondo said:

Are we not in the DOI?

 

Crumbs, no wonder i don't feel safe.

Turn round, through the door, turn left, then third door on the right, down the corridor through the double doors, second door on the left, and the DoI is the fourth door on the right.

It has a sign on it that says “Professor Wankel Oneread.” 
 

You’ll be safe there.

Actually I’m reminded of a time I auditioned for a covers band. I spent hours learning half the set on the fretless Shuker. Literally hours. 
 

I turned up to the audition and as I was getting the bass out the lead singer said

”Oh, sorry mate - we don’t do any Paul Young covers..”